Recently there's this:

https://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-is-being-sued-over-github-copilot-piracy

But Microsft has been caught reusing open source code with no respect of the GPL multiple times over the years, that's old news.

Ya, it's probably best to change the title of this thread to "What is the definition of DRM" as that is all that is really being discussed......... as predicted.

Thanks.

Same goes for GOG installers, they too often don't install needed runtimes.

I also have some games bought in other stores, that come as zip files to begin with, no installers. So having a zip is not really a workaround.
Steam offers a way to backup games locally, the downside being, that this backup needs the client to be reinstalled.
Zipping does the same job, so I would not use that method anyway. But I tried it in the past and it works.

Either way, it doesn't change the fact the GOG installers can only be obtained via licence check, so the level of DRM is the same.

true :) But there's workarounds for taxes too ...

Some GOG games are cracked, again I name Dark Forces as example. The game is tricked into thinking that the CD is inserted. It does not require any data from the CD, it just performs a check if it's there. A very badly coded check and easy to fool, but there's a check and GOG did not remove it.

I am not talking about cracks. If something needs to be cracked to work, it can't be considered DRM free or copy protection free. The majority of indie games on Steam come without DRM.
From the Non-Indies I own exclusively on Steam it's only about 10% however. But they do exist.

It's also possible to play a number of Non-Indies on Epic without the launcher using command line parameters. I leave it open to debate if that should be considered to be DRM free, personally I don't think so however. It's not really important after all, all that matters to me is that I can play them without the launcher.

Managing is another word for controlling.

So in the case of DRM, it is management of digital rights, basically controlling what we the user can do with it ... play it, copy it, etc. So even though the term DRM did not appear until 2000, that term covers any management of digital rights before or after that year. Just like there was GAY people before they were called that.

He meant as to how it was intended to be used. Eg, Cognition An Erica Reed thriller will run without the Steam client but it won't save the game. Same is true of "You can play Alien Isolation without Epic client but none of the DLC's work plus you can't load a save from the main menu". It's obvious they were intended to have the client running and it's just a "happy accident" when you can find a game that won't crash without it, but that's what a 'workaround' is vs a zip file devoid of any client integration (achievements, etc) guaranteed to work clientless for itch.io, Humble, etc.

We must be playing very different games as WAY more than 10% of indie's on Steam have DRM in my experience : ARMA Cold war Assault, Avadon / Avernum, Commandos Behind Enemy Lines, Crookz The Big Heist, The Deed, Deponia Complete Trilogy, The Darkside Dectective, Dex, Donut County, Escape Goats, Finding Paradise, Hyperdrive Massacre, Inside, Insurgency, Layers of Fear, Limbo, The Little Acre, Lucius, Maid of Sker, Machinarium, Magrunner Dark Pulse, Metro 2033, My Memory of Us, Oxenfree, Paradise Killer, Penumbra Trilogy, Steamworld Dig 2, Surviving Mars, Syberia's, The Tiny Bang Story, This War Of Mine, Titan Quest, Torchlight 1-2, Tropico's, Uncertain The Last Quiet Day, etc, as well as many old AAA's that have come to GOG in recent years (Batman Arkham trilogy, Bioshock, Control, Dishonored, Metro's, Prey, Skyrim, The Talos Principle, etc) and thousands more are all DRM'd on Steam. Overall, I'd say more than half the games on GOG & Epic have DRM on the Steam versions. Not every game is, but "only 10%" is overselling it to a comically dishonest extreme.

Fully agree

I don't know what you are playing, but you may not have payed much attention when reading, because you got two things wrong:
1. I was talking about Non-Indie games
2. I said 10% are DRM free, no that they have DRM.

edit: three things, sorry.
3. I also wrote "that I own exclusively on Steam"
Meaning ... yes, you got it: Games that I only own on Steam and nowhere else.
I don't care what Metro, Deponia and so one have and what not and didn't bother to check, because I also own them on GOG.
Of the games that I could find nowhere else, only very few have no DRM and these usually are rather small productions.
Well, if it doesn't work in my eyes that means that it doesn't run properly without the launcher. I haven't tried Alien, but Spider-Man, Ghostbusters, The Sinking City,Heavy Rain, Stubbs, TwentyXX, Twin Mirror, Detroit and some others make no problems at all.

Even Death Stranding can be played without launcher - but the savegames are not compatible with the online version. You have to decide if you want to play offline or online. And of course online features won't work (like sharing the material costs for road building or leaving items for other players to pick up or pick up theirs)


Just as a hint: Often the only information that a game requires from a launcher is user ID. For games that apparently don't save, that may be enough. Start them with the launcher and see what ID is passed through the command line then use the same option for your offline link. Try that with Alien and Cogniiton.
In some cases even something like "00000000" works.

You are correct, my mistake I did indeed misread. However the whole "if I zip up my Steam folder (of a game I can get to run without the client) it's not a workaround and is the same as an officially supplied zip / installer" is very definitely a workaround as far as Valve are concerned and even clearly stated in their subscriber agreement where you are literally agreeing that access to your 'subscriptions' (purchased games) is only legally via the "service" (Steam client). Epic won't give you a refund either on grounds a purchased game needs the Epic Launcher to run. Likewise, "Either way, it doesn't change the fact the GOG installers can only be obtained via licence check, so the level of DRM is the same" is on par with claiming an unprotected MP3 file "has DRM" because you needed an Amazon account to buy it from Amazon. It's not what most sane people mean at all, and it does nothing but devalue the actual meaning for actual DRM-Free stores vs stores where some games can simply be botched to run without a client.

Yes, that with the zip files leaves room for interpretation.

And no, you got the rest wrong again. I didn't say, the game has DRM, I said that getting the game it is DRM barred in both cases cases. Same goes for the mp3.
You need a Steam account to download, it's not possible without account verification.
You need a GOG account to download, it's not possible without account verification.
You need a Amazon account to download, it's not possible without account verification.

All this uses DRM.
The actual use of the downloaded product after that may or may not use DRM. But the download most definitly does.

I know what you're saying but "my credit card is DRM" is exactly what people roll their eyes at with this argument and simply isn't what most normal people refer to in practise when talking about DRM-Free gaming on a DRM-Free gaming store's forum...

Point is: either is the requirement of authentification when downloading a game considered to be DRM or it isn't.
If it isn't, then it's slso not to be called as such when downlading through Steam.

Playing is a whole different story but I was specifically talking about the download and getting the game ready to play for the first time.

Edit: I agree on the common use of the term. I use it in a very similar way. When I'm asking about a DRM free version, I actually don't just mean DRM free playing, but also a download source where I can get a zipo or a installer to keep for backup.
But just because I make the same mistake, that doesn't make it right.

It actually matters how it is done, because any offline copy protection removing crack that worked ten years ago will still work today, whereas not all of the cracks for online DRM can say that, because some of them only fool this or that version of some client to let some game to run and only if that version of the client had been set to offline mode by the user before applying the lousy hack, which of course is going to be rather difficult thing to achieve once a newer version of the client has been released or the service has been closed entirely.

This major difference should be more than enough of a reason to keep copy protection methods separated from any actual DRM methods that allow a publisher to revoke your license or close their authentication servers and thus retroactively manage your rights rather than essentially handing you a key for the lock they put on their product and then be totally powerless to stop you from making copies of that key or removing the lock and copying the product as many times as you wish.

Bought, changed & sold is still Piracy and it's against every copyright law and LUA/TOS you read today from MS itself.

That’s the good thing about gog. There will always be a place for drm free games and indie stuff
What do you mean