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Did an ISO on Lift, as I seem to be going back and forth on him. If anyone could give me tips on how to format these better in the future it would be appreciated

#52 joins the game

#54 RVS for book

#70 joke reply to viper asking if lift is mafia. asks if yog eating the mafia bait is a joke or not

#85 announces a non-RVS vote for yog due to aforementioned joke

#109 lectures buck on the culture of new player protection after buck votes for carradice and their wanting to officially mark new players as new

#149 Votes Joe after their quicktopic bait post, claiming that Joe would only have known to ask about the quicktopic link if they received one themselves

#154 reminisces about fighting with HSL in past games, and asks for their thoughts on the game

#177 votes for micro based on random.org vote

#223 claims town would have no reason for a random vote past RVS, but argued scum could have very weak reasons for doing so

#271 Lift now starts touching on micro lying about planning not voting for dedo, and then doing so when the RNG told them to

#288 Tells Viper that an "i dont care" attitude is harmful to town and makes for a easy target if scum, advises to get a sub if not interested in playing.

#381 ISO on carradice. Feels NAI on them but that being an active player and having better candidates would not want to lynch them, claims would join a carradice wagon to avoid no-lynch

#386 finds pooka to be very sure of them selves with the "my ass not getting lynched D1" claim, also says that between carradice and pooka would rather vote pooka

#387 Dessimu ISO, finds them to be leaning town and genuinely scum hunting

#389 Tells pooka that D1 is chatoic and wagons can shift at the drop of a hat, but that they require someone to start them. Then questions pooka's opinon on a Micro wagon

#392 Is curious to Cadaver's insistence of a scum daychat. Takes interest in Carradice claim of being on the same team as gogtrial, in the end decides may have to consider carradice as a vote candidate

#393 Questions gogtrial on not making his player impressions public. starts questioning them voting for pooka when they avoided carradice and micro's wagons for "non enough momentum". stated pooka's equally lacked momentum until gogtrial added to it.

#400 votes for carradice, regrettably abandoning his micro wagon. States does not want to put pooka(currently at L-2) in range of an accidental hammer with so much time left in the day.

#410 doubles down that he believes that Carradice "same team" message to gogtrial was a slip meant for scum chat

#441 Questions pooka on if they are going to run with the "accidental hammer" excuse after Lift himself already warned about it posts back

#494 Tells micro he does not regret his decision to vote carradice based on info he had at the time. Claims that he does find both pooka and micro suspicious

#499 Tells Carradice they should have full claimed their PR, would have possibly seen pooka lynched instead.

#515 admits that he has accidentally hammered as scum in the past himself. States if pooka used a self preservation excuse he would have felt pooka more town than saying they didnt see another page of posts.

#531 lift admits that he swapped gogtrial and carrdice names in post 515.

#562 Lift votes pooka, again doubling down that town!pooka would have been honest about hammering to save himself vs lying about not reading page 9

#626 Giving $0.02 to buck about the concept of scum bussing.



Honestly I would put Lift as scum leaning. I understand that a lot can happen in these games in a short amount of time, but seeing him go from NAI on Carradice to voting them into a L-2 wagon in the span of 20 posts seems a bit of a u-turn. Granted he did give me the advice about not falling for scum bussing eachother, but scum!Lift could have chimed in with the advice to look town helping out a less experienced player.


With a couple days left in D2 I dont want to kill pooka TOO early in case they are town, but I don't want to sit without a vote on the board. So let me put my possibly misguiding readings to the test

Vote Lift
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gogtrial34987: My apologies for making you feel that I'm putting words and meanings into your mouth. What I'm trying to do is get clarity on what it is that you do mean. None of the interpretations I try seem to fit.
Do what you *must*.

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gogtrial34987: So, the essence of that as I read it: "Carradice is Condemner gathering votes for the lynch and win the game".

Condemner only wins the game by eliminating a specific someone else.
That means he needs to gather votes on someone else.

How would the joke allow him to gather votes on someone else?
Or: How does getting "a" lynch (on himself, rather than on his assigned condemnee) help him "win" the game? That does not fit with the Condemner role.

Do you understand my confusion with your original statement? Maybe try rephrasing what you intended to say in #350 in some different manner?
I do understand your confusion. I was wrong, I meant Condemnee not Condemner and even self-aware Condemnee who knows about his/her role will not gain a win after self-lynch.

What I meant by 4th possibility "Carradice is indeed a Neutral-Condemner, hence the joke, and is trying his best to gather remaining votes for the lynch and win the game." is that Carradice was having specific suicidal role which could have helped him win with lynching self. I have no idea if such a role exists in Mafia-game reality or not.

Please add the above to your half-argument for Scum!Cadaver theory when you have time.
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Dessimu: ...why not silently think about them to yourself and present the most likely one? Because most likely is most likely. Lets test that instead of chasing wind. You can argue that me, not voting Pooka is a hypocrisy, because Pooka being scum looks like "most likely to be true and easiest to test". But every vote is a serious thing. And my personal, most-likely, belief is this:

Either Book or HSL is mafia, for sitting comfortably on Carradice. What started as a random vote, became serious after town started suspecting Carradice, so why move? Mafia knowing that Carradice is town, would be stupid for all mafia to jump on wagon. Create alt wagon on another town, to gain easy town points after Carradice's flip.
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Dessimu: NK Max for getting pissed about lurking and assuming he may be hiding a role and doesn't know what to do with it without giving himself away, policy kill.
Mafia NightKilled Maxleod because they were pissed with him potentially hiding a PR and / or Policy Kill, really???
You call *a most likely* and I would call it - HIGHLY unlikely.

Since when Mafia is interested in policy kills or Town lurkers (especially with that - *let's not kill newbies on D1/N1 policy*)? Do they want to win the game or what? They knew Maxleod is Town and that he said barely anything and nothing interesting (Ultra-Lurker), then out of the sudden Maxleod created an L-1 situation and Pooka hammered. Both Maxleod and Pooka with their insane excuses were good candidates for angry Town mob to lynch on D2.

Let's AGAIN see for the possibilities, shall we?

I. Mafia NK Maxleod (likely), their goals might be:

1). To generate additional suspicion on Pooka for an easy lynch on following D2
Pooka with his post hammer *page 9* excuse was already a good candidate for a lynch, perhaps Mafia eliminated Maxleod only for the reason they didn't want Town to even consider between Maxleod or Pooka

Problem is that Pooka's wagon is not moving all too well if it was the case, OR maybe Mafia just need some more time convincing Town before committing to the wagon with the excuse *better Pooka then no-lynch, duh*

Another problem is that NK Pooka could be more profitable or at least on par with NK Maxleod. But I think that dead Town Pooka would not generate enough suspicion for Maxleod in that regard.

2). IF Pooka is Mafia then he gained bad attention and Mafia might want to eliminate Maxleod for the same reason as above BUT for the opposite effect at the same time.

Aftermath Mafia chat example:
Mafia Goon #1: Pooka, WTF were you thinking with your quickhammer and that stupid excuse *page 9*?!
Mafia Goon #2: What would I do? Die maybe? And you were not helping me either!
Mafia Goon #3: Don't you worry, guys, I think I know how we can help with Pooka situation, we'll kill Maxleod and then we'll imprint the idea of Town Pooka into their minds based on *why would Pooka be so stupid for a Mafia* reason. I call it *double anti-shade* tactic.
Mafia Goon #4: Good thinking, Dess! You're so clever, I love you!

That above is a joke, especially the Mafia Goon #4, who would expect a 4th Mafia in 15 players anyway, it's 26% (not 25%), too much, right? Right? Right???

You for example are musing about how Pooka could be Town. I suspect that some Players might do too (which one?).

3). Mafia killed Maxleod because they were *pissed* of him.

Aftermath Mafia chat example:
Mafia Goon #1: OK, our first Night, let's kill somebody!
Mafia Goon #2: I got it, I got it! Let's kill *that guy*, I think he breadcrumbed something about Cop or a Vigilante!
Mafia Goon #3: NO! We'll kill Maxleod, I'm SO pissed of him and he didn't say much, could have a really Powerful Role, if my gut feeling fails on me, well we would call it a Policy Lynch and use it against Town, anyway the game will be more fun without him.
Mafia Goon #4: Good thinking, Dess! You're so clever, I love you!

The very same theory (not the chat of course) you presented above as *most likely*. Bingo?

No, I don't call you Mafia, Dessimu. But since you're starting to call Pooka Town and suspect me of being Mafia for accusing Pooka maybe or because of other players with whom I interacted, together with Gogtrial (so many Scum Cadaver mentions) and Book (who voted), I had to return the favor.

4) Mafia did NK but it was redirected to Maxleod
The most crazy theory, but here it is.

II. Mafia did NOT NK Maxleod (wild theory of Cadaver-the-mad) - this will be proven / unproved if we get 2 NKs on N2:
Mafia unable to kill on N1 because ZFR is the Law and he decided to give Town a free Night OR Mafia can't kill on odd Nights.

5) Compulsive Vigilante
Aftermath pm chat example:
ZFR: You need to choose the Target, NOW!
Player: But I don't want to kill people, what if I kill an innocent?
ZFR: Kill or DIE! I have no time for your feelings, you must choose your target!!!
Player: OK, I chose Maxled, he is a Lurker and if he is Mafia all the better.
ZFR: OK, fine.

6) Serial Killer
ZFR: You need to choose the Target, NOW!
Player: Maxleod, this will at least make them all curious. Muh-hah-hah-hah!!!
ZFR: OK, fine. [what a crazy person, whatever]

7) ???
ZFR said there is no bastard elements but I can't ignore the possiblity that our roles may have some hidden adjustments which are bastard by itself, but hidden. I placed it here so for the *clarity* sake.

@All, I was not claimed / hinted at anything, including my possible alignment. I'm not Vigilante, Cop, Serial Killer or any other role which may or may not have been mentioned in that post.
EBWOP:

7) ???
ZFR said there is no bastard elements but I can't ignore the possiblity that our roles may have some hidden adjustments which are NOT bastard by itself, but hidden. I placed it here for the *clarity* sake.
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gogtrial34987: Also made me follow all the layers of the "wider context" discussion, which leads to a weird Cadaver reply ( #265) to Joe's #193, where Joe was asking yogs something about Lift, and Cadaver questioned Joe on why he was focusing on Lift and not on dedo or buck. Clumsy scum!Cadaver trying to protect scum!Lift and/or shade town!Joe?? In any case, good original point from Bookwyrm.
Weird how? Instead of links give me the quotes please and elaborate on my *weirdness* please so @all can see how *weird* I am.
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maxleod: Mafia Goon #4: Good thinking, Dess! You're so clever, I love you!
I love you too!
Hazards of phone posting. Quote is for Cadaver, purely fun.
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Cadaver747: What I meant by 4th possibility "Carradice is indeed a Neutral-Condemner, hence the joke, and is trying his best to gather remaining votes for the lynch and win the game." is that Carradice was having specific suicidal role which could have helped him win with lynching self. I have no idea if such a role exists in Mafia-game reality or not.
It does. It's called "Jester". One of those roles which ZFR explicitly ruled out being present. You should be aware of that, since Carradice and me behaved as Jesters in Stanley Hotel, which was frequently referenced.

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JoeSapphire: Is this lift making a fast case on somebody, voting them, and not letting go, or lift flitting around to the next dumb thing?
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Cadaver747: I can't say, Lift put his Vote after Dedo's and before Buck's. Why is Lift the one who is making something and not Dedo or Buck?
Joe was talking to yogsloth, as part of a multi-post conversation about Lift.

You answered it, and questioned Joe about singling out Lift and not asking about Dedo or Buck. Bookwyrm notes this in #336 as you ignoring the "wider context".
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gogtrial34987: It does. It's called "Jester". One of those roles which ZFR explicitly ruled out being present. You should be aware of that, since Carradice and me behaved as Jesters in Stanley Hotel, which was frequently referenced.
Come again? We have no Jesters / Bastard elements here.

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gogtrial34987: Joe was talking to yogsloth, as part of a multi-post conversation about Lift.
You answered it, and questioned Joe about singling out Lift and not asking about Dedo or Buck. Bookwyrm notes this in #336 as you ignoring the "wider context".
No elaboration on my *weirdness*. 3 players cast their votes in that succession: Dedo > Lift > Buck. Joe mused about Lift *making a fast case on somebody*, not Dedo, and not Buck. I asked why is that the case (not Dedo, and not Buck)? Why it's *weird* for me to ask? Was it *weird* for Joe to chose Lift who voted in between them two? Or it's only applies to me?
Vote Count

Pooka 4 - Cadaver, yogsloth, gogtrial, Lift
Lifthrasil 3 - Dessimu, HSL, bucktooth
Cadaver 1 - Bookwyrm
Micro 1 - Disliked

Not voting - dedo, ettac, Joe, Micro, Pooka

13 players in game. Takes 7 to lynch.

Pooka is closest at L-3

When you see a vote count, please make sure your name is shown as voting for the correct person. Let me know if it isn't.

D2 Timer:
https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20220428T21&p0=1457&font=cursive
I haven't had the motivation to drain my energy trying to establish my defense yesterday, and today's our easter holiday that I actually want to spend somewhere else. At the very least, I'll talk about something that only started bothering me yesterday and which I was thinking about and wanted to get out of my head sooner than later.

Specifically something something about Lift accidentally hammering in a prior game but now voting me for the same reason. I knew this was brought up earlier on but I didn't realize the significance behind Lift...admitting to accidentally doing it.

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dedoporno: It can be truly accidental and Pooka can still be scum.
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Lifthrasil: Of course. That happened to me as scum too, that I genuinely accedentally hammered. I got away with it on the excuse "But I never would do that as Scum!!11!!!" ... which is one more reason why I don't believe this excuse in Pooka's case.
[emphasis mine and stuff]

I expected I'd have to dig for the game in which that happened, but Lift made it easy for me. He admits he genuinely accidentally hammered. Now he's voting me for accidentally hammering as well. Everyone stated their reasons on why they don't buy my vote or my reasoning or defense for it, and that's fair.

The problem is when he admits that he truly did accidentally hammer himself at some point in the past. Accidentally hammering for real is essentially a human error, not influenced by alignment. What I'm trying to get at is, Lift had a firsthand, live experience proving that it's possible for even someone with his experience to mistakenly drop the hammer...and yet when I'm put in the very same circumstances, I'm Mafia who's faking it and trying to save my flesh. How does he know for certain?

It all feels very convenient to be honest. Shouldn't he know that what happened to him, could also happen to me? Even dedoporno knows it happens very frequently in GOG Mafia and just NEVER DIES.

Votus Lifthrasil



And as a bonus:

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gogtrial34987: @Pooka: You responded to #503 in #532, but never to the question about what you meant here, given that Lift never voted you. Could you please still do so? I'm specifically interested in which post you were referring to in which "an interesting point" was brought up, and what that point was.
@HSL: Had you noticed that Pooka didn't respond to this?
Huh, I forgot what I meant by that, didn't help that I had to backtrack a bit to figure out exactly what was I commenting on, and it's this post. The "he" I clumsily forgot to specify in my original was gogtrial, who did vote me.
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Lifthrasil: Most posts by gogtrial seem to be NAI. However:

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gogtrial34987: Finally!
My reasons for the vote were threefold.
1) I ranked my impressions of everyone (for myself atm). Pooka came out at the scummiest end.
2) I didn't explain my vote as I wanted to see who - if anyone - would react to that. Microfish's lack of jumping on it in particular stands out, given the way he jumped on yogsloth's #268. Him not doing the same for me makes me see the other interaction as potentially micro distancing from yogs.
3) Until yogs vote, pooka had been noted by several people as vote-worthy, without actually attracting any votes. By placing the third vote for him, I hoped to provide some insentive for him to start contributing. Also, the other wagons (Carradice and microfish) had been pretty lacking in momentum, and I did not feel much desire to vote either of them.
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Lifthrasil: 1) why only for yourself and not publicly? Such a list would be important to share. And why was Pooka at the scummiest end, at that point of the game?
2) OK. The time-honored tradition of fishing for reactions ... or using that as an excuse. Actually the latter happens more often in my experience. When someone is caught at something scummy, they often defend themselves with 'I was fishing for reactions!'
3) So you noticed several players kind of suspecting Pooka and thought he might be a viable candidate to go along with, without drawing too much attention to yourself? And the reason you didn't vote Carradice or micro was ... their wagons lacked momentum. While Pooka's wagon lacked momentum too ... so you added momentum to it. Kind of a double standard.

Which is especially strange, considering that you theoretized that Carradice might be Condemner against you. Or scum. So there should be a big incentive for you to vote Carradice ... and yet you don't! Instead you say you are relatively sure that it was a flawed joke (and therefore not a slip). Why? Are you in a team with Carradice after all and are trying to cover up his slip?
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JoeSapphire: I say you might be lying and you tell me you hate to lie. I say I believe you and you take offense!
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Cadaver747: "I think this is genuine" - Yes.
I take offense for entirely different reason.

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JoeSapphire: Do you feel like I'm underestimating you?
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Cadaver747: Yes I do. For a second time you wanted me for a liar for GOG knows what reason.
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JoeSapphire: I'd love this to be false...
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Cadaver747:
Oh I see. It's not that I want Cadaver to be scum. That's not what I mean.

But from where I'm standing either you're reacting genuinely, or you're making outrageous overreaction calculated to deceive us.

Which the drama of it excites me. Even if it's just in my imagination.

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JoeSapphire: This is nice. Makes me think bucktooth is town.
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gogtrial34987: Because... he's so innocent?
Because he thought he was on to something and it excited him.



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gogtrial34987: (At least he doesn't town-read me, which is hopeful.)
*narrows eyes*


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Dessimu: Are you saying you post scummy things?
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gogtrial34987: No; just that Joe knows my anti-town game (mafia #55, where we were tragic lovers),
and thus knows better than to town-read me.
*narrows brain*

*head hurts*




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dedoporno: Ah, I get it now. You're suggesting it was a LAMIST statement.
You don't know what I'm thinking!

I've read the relevant part of your post over and over and I can't think what would have jumped out at me.

But if it was just that I thought you were just declaring the-reason-to-not-kill-new-players so we'd be tricked into thinking you believed that reason I think I would have just said that.

I guess I might have been wondering who you were talking to when you wrote it? But I don't really see the relevance of that now.

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JoeSapphire: dedoporno (?)
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dedoporno: I'm disappointed you think I'd be OK with targeting the only new player in a game with so many [and strong] players. The same new player with whom I just played SH and where by the end of the game he was my only wrong F read yet the one I was most certain and insistent about. You're right, why shouldn't I double-tap that mofo into oblivion?
Well I did put a question mark there
And yeah, you're right. You have double reason not to nightkill Maxleod.

bleugh. EBWOP:


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Cadaver747: Yes I do. For a second time you wanted me for a liar for GOG knows what reason.
Oh I see. It's not that I want Cadaver to be scum. That's not what I mean.

But from where I'm standing either you're reacting genuinely, or you're making outrageous overreaction calculated to deceive us.

Which the drama of outrageous performance excites me. Even if it's just in my imagination.



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gogtrial34987: Because... he's so innocent?
Because he thought he was on to something and it excited him.

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gogtrial34987: (At least he doesn't town-read me, which is hopeful.)
*narrows eyes*

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gogtrial34987: No; just that Joe knows my anti-town game (mafia #55, where we were tragic lovers),
and thus knows better than to town-read me.
*narrows brain*

*head hurts*

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dedoporno: Ah, I get it now. You're suggesting it was a LAMIST statement.
You don't know what I'm thinking!

I've read the relevant part of your post over and over and I can't think what would have jumped out at me.

But if it was just that I thought you were just declaring the-reason-to-not-kill-new-players so we'd be tricked into thinking you believed that reason I think I would have just said that.

I guess I might have been wondering who you were talking to when you wrote it? But I don't really see the relevance of that now.

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dedoporno: I'm disappointed you think I'd be OK with targeting the only new player in a game with so many [and strong] players. The same new player with whom I just played SH and where by the end of the game he was my only wrong F read yet the one I was most certain and insistent about. You're right, why shouldn't I double-tap that mofo into oblivion?
Well I did put a question mark there
And yeah, you're right. You have double reason not to nightkill Maxleod.
I managed to squeeze some reading earlier today (and see that I've fallen way behind, bleh), but I still have some Easter family stuff happening in about half an hour, so this is just a quick check on the game state. So, a couple of quick points on the last page:

- I see that Lifthrasil gained another two votes in the span of something like 10 hours. Hmm...

- I don't like that PookaMustard in his argument for voting Lifthrasil leaves out that Lifhtrasil's own experience of the "accidental'/accidental hammer was as scum, which he very clearly says in the bit PookaMustard quotes in post #641.

- Interesting things about the current vote-count:
(i) bucktoothgamer is, again, the one to give the extra push to second wagon with a very similar argument he made yesterDay (post #368);
(ii) Lifthrasil and PookaMustard are cross-voting each other, each as the forth vote on the other one's wagon, with four players left to place a vote while the wagons are now tied.

Anyone else getting a a bit of feeling that some funny business might be going on?


I'll see if I can be back later this evening.
Weekend over, I'll see about catching up today. Expect it to take several hours, and I suspect that will be my norm for the rest of this game (absent on weekends, catch up on Mondays).