It has, so if it's a quite old game it's not going to help.

I'm asking because I think that as third-party it's easier to mimic your town play more naturally, and hence stick out less, if not be town-read - you don't have to worry about outing/being linked to any scum-buddies, you don't know anyone else's alignment but your own, you have to do some actual scum-hunting, and "aligning" with town is more beneficial, at lest in early game.



Funny, I was just going over gogtrial3498's last posts again, and was about to ask him why Bookwyrm627 was off the menu. Hopefully he can shed some light before D1 ends.

I don't think it "naturally follows that one can point to a single night kill as being indicative of there being a vig."
not at all. That's what I meant with non sequitur. And you are the only one that keeps saying it would follow in any way.
It doesn't and Poppy never said it did. You say it naturally follows, so that's on you not Poppy.
bad marimbas indeed.
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I'd be interested into which pile you eventually sorted him, before the day is out, once you've made up your mind.

-Her reaction to Trent for instance, both in recieving his vote in #88 "Nice to see you're consistent. :) " that it is the only vote she's concerned about in #96 (while also saying to you that if you truly believed hers to be an omgus vote you shouldn't be concerned about it the way you are), sticking to thinking trent town in her reads list #119 (which she made on his querie and no omgus in sight) and then taking heart in #128 when trent reconsiders his vote.
-Her push against you in #96 and #102 looks like mighty fine scumhunting to me.
-Generally when I ISO her, I get a feeling of Town which somehow doesn't work when I ISO you. I tried it.

Do you really think so? I don't see much telling us about Vitek when we lynch Scene or the other way around.
She found most of what scene said baffling #98 his vote on her (that she herself commented on in #122) is what a lot of people have as their main reason for voting scene in the first place, so what does lynching scene tell us about poppy/vitek?

not true. Scum have a much higher reason to not want to get lynched themselves just for being "wrong". They are less, they lose much easier from loosing one member than town does. So your argument that "if you were actually town, you wouldn't feel the need to offer yourself as the next mis-lynch" is wrong. it should read If you were scum, you wouldn't feel the need to offer yourself as the next lynch, since 2for1 is actually not too bad of a deal for town.

of course chain-mis-lynching is bad. I just felt that because of my saying we should lynch you lift and should you turn out town lynch vitek tomorrow is a good idea since I'm pretty sure one of you two is scum and I'm pretty sure it's you lift.
But I felt the need to add that if both of you turn out town I would feel the need to commit seppuku, since I'd die of shame anyway and to construe that as me being scum (who would never do that) is pretty next level. Sure I could be wrong about you, but let me ask you this:

If we lynch scene today and he flips town. Are you in favor of lynching poppy/vitek next? and if so and if they would flip town too, would you feel bad in anyway? would you offer yourself up?

(course not. I already feel the answer town never does that. blah blah ok ok. Well I'm town so I know for sure that town would make stupid arguments like that. Stupid people make stupid arguments :P

------
ok new dogma:
I will concede that, I will not offer myself up for lynch this game, because I am town and I will fight my lynch with all I have.
I will also concede that chain lynching is bad and we should not in any way decide today who the lynch tomorrow should be.
I will furthermore concede that we should vote who we feel is scummiest. (Liftthrasil, SPf and bookwyrm? are my picks at the moment)
------

@scene: I'm sorry for not getting back to our conversation last night. I fully intended to, along with several other posts after the last one I replied to; was just working through the posts methodically, seeing what struck me as needing a reply. Was then interrupted by real life, and then time ran out.

@dedo and @HSL, Re: why not bookwyrm?: I did a final scan over the player list; like a "what do I remember from them" a la Joe, but then only mentally. I thought something like "has improved a lot with some very to the point comments lately". I remember him referencing post numbers, with me tracking them down and seeing things I hadn't noticed before.
If I now scan back over the last page, his actual contributions seem pretty thin, but that was not the feeling I was left with. (Did I partly conflate him with someone else? I really hope not!) For the record, all three names are only off the menu for today. None is solid enough for more than that. But my feel about them is (was?) such that I'd need to see solid argumentation and do rereading before feeling comfortable voting them, and that's just not gonna happen anymore today.

Okay, off again!

Apparently.
I have not even noticed it until yo uspelled it out for me.
I think I meant to put SPF there.

Have a few town points for checking your own arguments.


No, I just don't think it should work this way and it certainly doesn't for me.
If I find something wrong in discussion, I try to find what is it and if it makes one of the sides scummy, which side it is and then lynch that side (or leave them if I find I found nothing wrong).
I certainly don't go saying that the discussion was simply wrong (or that just feels off) and don't go lynching anyone involved in it until I hit the correct target or run out of options and only then shrug and move on.
Sure, one can not be sure what makes something sound weird but it is up to them to figure out why, not to lynch anyone involved to get to the bottom of it.
To call the whole discussion superficial, lacking momentum and full of hot air but not to be sure who is scummy in it just isn't good basis for a lynch.

I would like to believe I would figure out both sides have anti-town agenda and then lynch both but I have to be honest with myself and admit that I probably wouldn't be able to tell SK x mafia argument from other ones as non-involved person.
The thing is, it shouldn't sound much different from any other. SK shouldn't know they are dealing with mafia and mafia that they are not trying to mislynch townie so they would most likely act the same way as dealing with anyone else so I don't know how it would differ from any other.

It gives another outing in this argument, doesn't it? I again don't have to figure out who is scummy as I feel both are therefore I am fine with lynching any of them.


Hello, pot, how is it going?

Lift being scum. again. he plays exactly like the last two (scum)games, as far as I can tell. You know random.org does have pretty good RNG ...

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just to save this quote. it's golden :)
*note for future readers. scene has four people voting him at the time*

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hehe, you've got some pretty impressive pirate cursing skills. I assume you killed everyone that called you Clive?
How about cLive? no?
seriously though, if it annoys you that much I'll not use it again. (I'll need to change my votecount for that though... :P)

true. it was just the two early sentences of him I quoted, that made me think this. (him being out to lynch anyone.
But his voting behaviour hasn't been one of wagon hopping. He started out with Dessimu for lurking, went over to Poppy after a long time and thought (see #107 for his readslist just before voting in #121) for whoknows? and then went over to lift 115 posts later for misrepresentation? idk.
Anyway as for your question, I do agree that he's not going after any lynch, although he is suspecting most anyone especially everyone that comes near him.

only his "schmuck baiting" but I saw he wasn't serious. So nothing more to it. *shrug*
as for why I still have him as likely scum? it's a condition I have I think...
If I may I want to take that backand ebwop my post to:
My current scumpicks are: Lift, SPf, ? (could be anyone of bookwyrm, dedo, dessimu or scene) the last one is quite unlikely though, since we'll probably see him lynched in a few hours anyway (L2 and only a few hours till deadline) and scum won't let itself be lynched that easy I think. We'll see...

I am looking at scene and while there is plenty of wrong there, it is still kind of in check with his previous self. Then, I have no comparison to make with your scum game so it doesn't really tell us much.

The truth is that he mostly don't have his own reads and go with whatever (almost anything) other people push
Scene's reads are all over the place and consist of who has most votes, then scum are the lurkers or now it is everybody voting him.
Overall it's everyone who targets him but I suppose it was the same last time?


@Supplement, do you still find Joe scummy and if you do can you explain why?


You did vote her.
I even questioned you about it and then misremembered it and you used it as part of your case, so it should be familiar to you.

Can you direct me to what is supposed to refer to?

This sure is interesting observation.

White or red? Rosé perhaps?

Am I reading this correctly? You doubt scene is scum as he is letting himself be lynched way too easy, therefore he's town?

The mile high club is awkward. There really isn't a lot of space in airplane toilets...

After initially town-reading her for being so helpful. Then you took a snide remark by flubb as an actual role-claim from Poppy (which is weird) and built your case from there.

Yes, I would. Check Post 155. You were my second choice for scum with a possibility of being a team with Poppy with some distancing. Or of being scum who buddied up to Poppy before switching to wanting to lynch her when the buddying didn't work.


Because that sentence was from RVS and sounded jokingly. Noteworthy? Yes. But not enough to build a case out of it without further interaction and observation. Which fell flat because Dessimu dropped out due to RL issues. Would you really lynch Dessimu over one strange sentence in the very first post?

Basically contributing, analyzing and making genuine sounding cases. He's in the process of doing that and in the end it boils down to feeling. Especially on D1. TBH he is in a difficult position taking over from someone I saw (and still see) as scummy, since the slot retains the alignment. But analyzed as himself without the Poppy-connection I would put him as neutral right now.

Exactly my point.

I bolded the relevant part. There is no way regular scum and an SK could coordinate to commonly dispose of Scene. The assumption "All scum including the SK are on my wagon" is either a serious case of paranoia or bogus. I guess it's the latter. It's just OMGUS taken to the next level.

We had different information about our characters. The mod had told me that we are related and had forgotten to tell you about it. So when I made a reference of you being my (step)son or something, you thought I were lying. And things devolved from there, because I thought you were intentionally trying to discredit me and got all defensive/aggressive. None of my finer moments. I didn't even know that there was no regular scum and that I was supposed to be the one who committed the N0 murder. So it became a very short game.


... to be continued (mchack, I'll come to you in the next post)

That's where I'm mostly are as well, plus both the leading wagon and the counter one are more often than not both town on D1. Observing his previous games, I thought "that play-style... if he rolls scum in his second or third game, he'd have to change very little to make it through the first couple of days". Plus, I'm not sure we can afford to see if and when the slot's going to self-resolve. With all that in mind, I'm ok with a vote here.

Do you have an alternative suggestion? It seems to me that a viable alternative wagon wasn't in sight for a couple of days already.


I noticed SirPrimalform's light going on a couple of times last night when I was on, but he didn't partake, or at least answer any of the questions he was asked. Didn't like that. But since he hasn't (yet?) answered, I'll add one that I fell victim of copy/paste/edit yesterday:

Back in your post #163 you had no read on supplementscene. Did that change in the meantime, or is your support of the wagon just to avoid No-Lynch?

Also, in that same post (#163), you called Lifthrasil's play "scummy-glockenspiel". Since you didn't mention him in your posts #227, did that also change, and if so, why?


Bump, please.

Puppies

Bump

D1 will end 6 pm CEST (4 pm UCT)

My bump was bumpier.

There's still not that much to analyze and I don't get a town feeling from Bookwyrm. So he goes in the 'better him than nobody' pile. But that's a moot point, since we have much better targets available. Scene, Vitek and you.

I don't believe you did. Otherwise you probably would see where my suspicion of Poppy came from. I rather assume you tried to see me as scummy. Which may be an unconscious bias (if you're town) or a concisus one, if you are scum.

Yes, scum have a vested interest not to get lynched. But they are also the ones who have to try to appear towny. Actual town don't have to pretend. So a pre-emptive statement like 'lynch me if I'm wrong' is a clear case of LAMIST. It's an easy statement to make too, since you always can go 'of course I am willing to sacrifice myself for The Greater Good, but it would be another mis-lynch' on the next day. So what is telling in this case is, that you felt the need to make such a LAMIST statement at all. Not whether you actually are willing to get lynched.

No and no. If Scene flips town, that doesn't tell us anything about Vitek. It's the other way round: if Scene flips scum, we should take another very intense look at Vitek since I still see the possibility that Scene's initial behaviour was support for a scum-buddy. Before feeling the need to distance himself. But it's also possible that Scum-Scene buddied up to town-Poppy, before realizing that that didn't work. However, town-Scene would have no information whatsoever about Vitek's alignment and Poppy didn't push Scene especially hard. So there is no correlation in that direction.
And no, I would not offer myself up as the next mis-lynch out of 'shame'. Sure, it would be annoying to have been wrong about Scene. But those among us who don't have any concrete information about other player's alignment, can only do their best to analyze behaviour. And right now Scene looks scummiest. So I think he is our best bet.

By the way, I think I'll have to switch mchack's and Vitek's position in my scum-list too. The remaining votes on Vitek's wagon just look a bit strange. There is Dessimu, which is basically a dead vote by now. Then there is Bookwyrm, a vote without much reasoning behind it and SPF with weak reasoning. Maybe I was wrong about Poppy and maybe that wagon was just convenient at the time ...

@SirPrim: what are your thoughts about Vitek now? Anything beyond Poppy's Vig-instructions?

Don't you think that later point in time should be now? Deadline is closing in and if you have reason to assume that lynching Vitek is better for town that lynching Scene, then you should speak up now!

I'd like to have a right of reply before getting hammered if possible

Ahhh making me re-read. Let's go and analyse Joe because he's been so lurky (or busy) I've almost not noticed him. Right he has some analysis and it's not very detailed or good. He doesn't attack any players aggressively, or put in much detail and he seems like he wants friends. He hasn't changed his vote or explained why he hasn't changed his vote. So if I'm scummy for not explaining enough (even though I did a post before and Lift/Trent twisted it) he's also scummy surely?

So yes I think he could be Scum and would be happy to lynch him. Haven't played with him before to know his town or scum style. Wouldn't be against lynching. Him, Dedo, SPF have all been very lurky. But SPF seems similar to his last game we played. Little analysis from SPF but he didn't as town either. Dedo was lurky in Secret Hitler and was scum but is this any different to his Town play? I don't know.

As for Poppy 'seeing something'. It was on page 2 and on my last re-read I found it was that HypersomniacLive never votes early and he voted early. She didn't explain it to me when I asked her though for whatever reason.

And wait a minute, you're accusing me of only jumping on wagons and following others criticisms. What about Lift? I think I was the first to state he could be Scum. I'm surprised more people aren't on that wagon. Because to me it seems likely either he or you are Scum unless its town on town violence. I'm also the first to suspect Gogtrial of being Scum if you re-read. I was also first to go after Dessimu and push him on his 'hello scums'. Oh yes and I'm the first to point the finger at Joe too. And the analysis for all of those should stick to scrutiny. I've actually attacked more players than any other player. Would Scum risk doing that?

As for you, I wonder if Poppy's attack on Flub was LAMIST because no Scum would attack a confirmed townee......or would they as a double bluff?

If you're the third mislynch in a row, it may well put us into MYLO in D3, if I run my scenarios correctly. Did you think about that?


Does he? I don't quite get the same vibe.


Do you think that supplementscene hasn't tried to fight against his lynch, or that he's not succeeded to sway people's opinions?


Ye got that starboard, ye lard brained screechy gobshyte!


The back O' me hand to yer snivelin' mouth ye syphilitic puppy killin' slimey bastitch!

Savvy?



I don't think we're making the same point.


I already said his argument has no merit. I'm just pointing out the way you chose to frame yours as I don't think that distinction wasn't necessary to refute his claim - both the SK and the mafia vote opportunistic, and it's in both of their interests to thin out the town pool; no coordination is needed for them to mislynch a townie.