*gasp*
You the host LIED to us?! This ISN'T the ordinariest ordinary game of all?!?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWdD206eSv0

The light, it burns me retinae!

Seriously... you are just plain silly. :P

Hey, I've been silly this entire game, and somehow Puzzle-Bot managed to survive this long.

No... actually. The moderator didn't lie, from what I have seen. This makes perfect and total sense to me. Seriously, Doctor never even crossed my mind, but Bodyguard felt like an almost sure thing.

Bookwyrm627 and agentcarr16 are just clueless ... or worse. ;)

----------

If you are wonder ingwhy I think it is so danged obvious, just consider the balance implications of a Doctor versus a Bodyguard. Which makes more sense for an 'ordinary game'? If you were the moderator of an 'ordinsary' game, which would you pick. ((Hint: if you say 'Doctor', then you are wrong and your game will suck because it isn't balanced correctly.)) :)

Regardless, I am done discussing it. You guys can continue to profess confusion and surprise all you like, but I'll be content to roll my eyes silently. ;)

Mind explaining it to ME, at least? I mean, I'm reeking of noobness here as it is anyways, so I don't think I can really get much worse than I already have unless I resorted to downright cheating.

Yeah, sure, alright. I don't see much harm in it at this point, since a Bodygaurd has already been revealed. Everything else follows quite easily, at least from my perspective.

Say you are a moderator, and you want to create a simple, or 'ordinary' game. If you have any roles at all, you will have a Cop. If you want to add a protection role, you have various options, but let us just limit it to a decision between Doctor and Bodyguard. If you add a Doctor, then you almost must give Mafia a non-ordinary role of some sort to counter the Follow the Cop strategy. The most obvious counter, is a Strongman, which I, personally, don't think of as an 'ordinary' role. You could limit the Doctor from continuously protecting the same targt each Night, but I think this sort of preclusion obviates the 'ordinary' distinction. This leaves a Bodyguard, which cannot, by definition, continuously follow the Cop, since a successful protection means certain death for the Bodyguard.

That was my internal reasoning, at any rate. I also remember a conversation I had with Vitek long, long ago, when he was helping me balance my Highschool game, on the subject. He made the point that if there is a Doctor in the game, then there has to be some sort of scum counter. I just think such matters complicate a game and move it beyond 'ordinary'.

Roles?
Roles?!
I'd just give everybody an oversized boxing glove and an inflatable baseball bat and let them have at it!

Anyways, ok, thanks for the info. Makes sense.

trentonlf called and he's not super happy.


I don't like this.


Vote: Leonard03

How about taking a shower then? ;-)

I don't think that Bodyguard is ordinary. It is among the normal roles, yes, but not among the most frequent ones (on mafiascum wiki at least). I would have though of Doctor, Cop and Godfather as ordinary roles.

But well, when Krypsyn first said he would do a more normal setup, I had kind of hoped he would go all the way and we would get a vanilla only setup. As I said some time ago in the admin thread, I would be very interesting in trying to play such an old-fashioned setting without relying on any power roles.

I was looking through older posts for anything suspicious that might reveal who the scum are. It strikes me as odd on how quickly agentcarr hammered JMich. Without any last considerations or more facts to support his vote, just a quick "Sorry" and then hammer. Almost like an opportunity vote. I don't trust agent.

And this. Stating the obvious idea in defense before asking. Twisted question I would say.

Vote agentcarr

LAMIST WIFOM incoming...

Boy, I play really badly. Hopping off my nice safe place in vote 6, just so I could hammer and get scrutinized.

Also, what do you mean I hammered quickly? JMich had been sitting at L-1 for several hours.

He answered my question anyways, so I guess it wasn't such a bad question after all.

At least you've got a vote down. I'll not complain more.

What is the purpose and potential benefit of all this roles speculation? Why would you care if bodyguard or another role is considered ordinary enough to fit the theme of the game? It is now obvious that it's not all powerless game. I'd say that is quite enough and anything else should be strictly on need-to-know basis.

On the other hand it's quite obvious how scum can extract value of such discussion by sniffing out potential role holders and/or prioritize targets.

JMich's wagon consisted of these people - Lifthrasil, dedoporno, zeogold, Bookwyrm, A_Future_Pilot, Leonard, agentcarr.

Considering JMich's play was questionable to say the least I'd say that joining his wagon was somewhat safe for scum since it wasn't baseless. It's quite probably that we have at least some scum there. If I were allow to bet I'd say that there are even 2 there. I doubt there are more than 2, but who knows, maybe.

JMich was at the brink a few times (can't be bothered to go back and count them but at least twice). Yet there wasn't speed-hammering. I believe the scum also felt that JMich is scummy enough to get himself lynched and they can get a free death without investing too much resources. Yet JMich continued to persist. In my experience I have come to believe that longer first days are usually more frustrating for mafia since they are more eager to get to the night phase, meet their buddies and get their hands dirty. With that in mind and seeing how JMich's wagon didn't go as fast as they probably expected I suspect that at some point they decided to just go for it putting more scum votes out there.

So, let's take a look at how we have on JMich.


Lift - his reasoning on going after JMich was greatly aligned with my own views. He was one of the first people along with myself (if not the first, can't recall without going back to check) to jump on JMich's play and never backed down from his position. This is the Lift I saw in the restrictor game. He did the exact same thing back then, with the exact same amount of almost fanatical resolve, in regard to Yog's bold move. He was wrong again, but he was also Town. I feel this is the same situation.

Myself - Not too much to say here. I know I'm town, unlike Lift I wasn't 100% sure JMich was scum, but I was sure he was scummy and wouldn't stray away from that on D1. Feel free to make your own judgement.

Zeogold - My stance regarding him hasn't changed too much since Yesterday. I still believe he is newbie Town who initially though he'll do perfectly fine because he has experience with another form of the game but that didn't turn out as planned. Been there, done that. I also believe that the scum tried to frame him by killing drealmer (yes, I don't think he sacrificed himself to cover the N1 target).

Bookwyrm - A few people see a threat in him. Unfortunately, I seem to be overlooking something since I can't see what is so scummy about him. I will go back to re-read but right now he is in my neutral list.

AFP - I already shared some thoughts about him on D1. Along with that he seemed quite eager to get it over with the day. Lurking for quite a bit of the time, which doesn't play nice with wanting the day to end. He is the first potential scum on JMich's wagon from my perspective.

Leonard - Already shared my reasoning why. His D2 good morning post is feels so much like a scum comment it's not even funny. General lurking doesn't help much, either. Scum.

agent - I can't really say at this point. Mostly neutral but I don't appreciate how Leonard was relieved that the hammer is now someone else's problem.



As for the N1 death - like I said, I believe it's a kill rather than the bodyguard ability going off.

I forgot.


vote Leonard

As a general clarification, I meant that Krypsyn answered my question, not that JMich answered my question.

@agentcarr1 and Bookwyrm627 - Sorry I got snarky and called you 'clueless'. I still think you are both scummy though. ;)

I am also happy to see some more voting. I was going to get all hot and bothered, yogsloth style, if it hadn't started. :)

As for dedoporno's, and possibly flubbucket's, concerns about talking about the set-up. I am usually pretty against talking about game set-ups, as most of you know, I just feel that the reveal of a Bodyguard made certain aspects of the game pretty obvious. Getting everyone on the same page with the obvious probable 'knowns' seemed like a good idea. As for further discussion on the matter, I don't think Day 2 is the correct time to delve into it.

You mean Vitek, not me, correct? I know we are both brilliant and devilishly handsome, thus easily confused, but... ;)