This is the key for me. He not only soft-claimed vanilla (it wasn't actually that "soft"), but he did so a L-5!

I have played with P1na before, and what he says about his play-style is completely true. My initial vote on him was made to pressure him about what he wrote, but also because I wanted to see how many people also jumped on him. I actually expected him to explain that this is how he usually plays, and then I could gauge more reactions from that.

However, it seems like the pressure portion of my vote was more effective than my 'bait' portion. Feeling the need to claim vanilla so early (if at all) solidified my vote completely in my mind. It just doesn't seem like a town mindset to me; not one bit.

-------------------

I think drealmer7 asked about my current scum reads a while back?

Not much has changed, except Leondard03 has moved up and bler144 has moved down. Had P1na explained himself in a more pro-town manner, I likely would have my vote on Leonard03 right now. I really don't like his vote for me, and not because it is on me in particular. I find the rationale for the vote incredibly thin.

Just something I thought I'd point out that I noticed while rereading, P1na isn't the only player who wants a drink.

Official Vote Count
*****************************************************
flubb 1: P1na
drealmer 1: adalia
Krypsyn 1: Leonard
yogs 1: flubbucket
P1na 8: Krypsyn, trent, yogs, drealmer, Ixam, dedo, bler, cristi
Ixam 1: Bookwyrm

not voting: JMich, HSL, HijacK
With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch. P1na is closest to lynch at L-1

******************************************************
Today, HijacK has been prodded.
******************************************************

Ok, so I went back and re-read the yogsloth vs. flubbucket argument. I'm going to side with yogs on this one. Flub stated multiple times that he didn't find yogs scummy, but that he thought yog's playstyle bad. This doesn't make sense, a scummy playstyle does not make flub think that person is scummy? And seems too much like a way out of a vote later. Another thing is that he took a while to vote for yogs, he posted a couple of times after yogsloth's claim where he didn't vote at all. Why? I don't see any sign that it was other people's ideas that lead him to the vote, so why the wait.
Unvote: Krypsyn
Vote: flubbucket

Probably going to get dirty looks for this since I'm changing my vote after getting flak for it. But I did say I was going to re-read the yog/flub thing and then rethink my vote.

I told you your heh was too much effort ;-)

Thank you for the punishment that I've received,
It was an accident and none were deceived.

I was quite upset when I accidentally edited a post,
You surely are a good moderator/mafia-game host!

Listen all, I've got some good news,
And it affects every-single-one of you!

All your eyes'-stresses shall get relief in short order,
you see me posting in rhyme?
This will make my wordiness ramblings to be quite shorter,
at least for a little time!

Hopefully this punishment doesn't prove too much a task,
Or I might give up sobriety and pick up a flask.

Thanks to krypsyn, for your scum-radar read,
Leonard03 for me too, is interesting indeed.

So, the flip on P1na could prove to us a loss,
it's possible they aren't working for a mafia boss.

I fear it could be true, and that they were "town"
and that we've just taken one of our own down.

Perhaps they are from some other faction
Or that their motives are dictating their action.

Either way their attitude wasn't helpful,
and because of that, their actions are doubtful.

I think it might be a good use of time, and doesn't hurt to ask:
I'm wondering if we should continue on with our scum-seeking task?

This business with P1na seems about done,
We could continue our quest to find the damn scum.

I know that the final vote is not cast,
so, please don't think I'm trying to kill people fast!

We just could continue the talks on who is next best (choice as likely scum)
Or is that premature and we should take time to rest?

Don't mistake my questions as reckless blood-thirst,
I'm just trying to communicate whilst talking in verse.

We could just wait until this business is done,
Then get some rest until the new day's begun...

I hope you've enjoyed reading me words
I'm talking in rhymes, and this shit's "for the birds!"

The upside of waking up far too early is that I can steal a few minutes...only to be constantly interrupted by a toddler wanting to play "Grocery store."

The vote is a particularly useful tool in scum-hunting. Note Krypsyn's discussion of his initial vote on P1na. With 8 people camped on this wagon nowhere, votes elsewhere look either insignificant if not potentially suspicious. Not to say no one should never vote for an alternate in this situation, but it's likely to merit add'l scrutiny. If only there were an example of this on the table!

This is the second time in the last few days I've written a much longer, analytical response to you in the sort of fashion I would if we were just PMing out of game. But then it occurs to me that I've apparently got a blind spot for friends and that I have no idea how you would play as scum, and that if you are, it's not wise of me to give you guidance on how to look less scummy.

The first was your self-described "Paranoid" theory about yogs and I. I actually have a good answer to that that where I'm pretty sure you won't like the second level implication for what it might say about you, but at least for now the best response is:

"Heh."

As for the question at hand, let's turn it around. Is there something you think would be helpful in scum-hunting at this point in D1?

Nice job with the rhyming though.

I know you didn't read game 29, but this is actually funny. If your play had been, with your vote already tied up, an attempt to get under his skin in some alternate fashion, this would be a tried and true method.

The only other thing I think I'd want to put out is that part of my displeasure with this wagon is the feeling town may not get much from it. So I started thinking about the actual consequences.

IF this is a "standard" game with a 75/25 split and no SK, while we don't gain much if P1na flips vanilla town (and at this point I don't really have much of a guess what alignment/role he really is), I don't think we actually lose much. It would be somewhat akin to a 15 player game with a full N0. Could still be more or less balanced.

If, as some have speculated, there's an SK in play, and that SK is not P1na, then it could be a bad start if we lose 2 town tonight. Though we also could catch a break and SK and/or Scum could hit each other.

So I was feeling glum about it while voting, but I actually feel a bit better.

Need to post and get out of here for the day, so I have not refreshed, and most of this is probably an hour out of sync.

Really considering looking for the gavel and hammering P1na, but I'll hold off a bit longer in case our wandering pineapple does decide to claim after all.
Have I mentioned that I hate short deadlines yet?

It's like you're speaking Swahili. I can imagine a game where every "Day" lasts 48 hours.

Me too. You ask a question when day starts, I answer 12 hours later, when I wake up, you see that and reply 12 hours later when you wake up, accusing me of misinterpreting your question. You rephrase it. I see it 12 hours later, say that I understood it just fine, and vote for you. Once you wake, you accuse me of OMGUS, vote for me, then the day ends since 48 hours have passed.
Oh joy....

Well, clearly you should just clear your schedule and not sleep for the couple of weeks it takes to play the game.

Quite.

That switch happened in less than an hour after Krypsyn elaborated on his stance about it which is noteworthy to say the least. We have a person at L-1 and one that does seem like the best candidate on the table. Yet you voted for one of the 2 original people of interest. I believe it's pretty obvious neither of them is likely to pick up enough votes before the deadline (unless there is a dramatic development that will massively shake the status quo). You already said you think p1na isn't a good vote so that accounts for why you aren't changing to him but voting for flub because you re-read and saw reasons for it just now feels off to me. I won't be dealing with you Today for sure since p1na is top priority in my eyes but you remain a person of interest to me for the upcoming day(s).

Oh man, now I've got to rhyme more, this takes time, whore (I just need rhyme words so I can type shit out, without a doubt, don't take too much personal, I've got to use all the words in the arsenal!)

I never said anything about changing votes, we don't need any jumping goats.

I don't think people should do such a thing,
unless they want to change who they want hang (it's the word that rhymes, yo!)

We can just continue to talk about the situation
without the need to change the elimination nomination

But also as I said, perhaps now time is to relax,
We should go to bed, and let this day pass.

I know I am done wanting to talk, for this rhyming shit
is making me balk.
*sigh**breathe*grrr* (ok seriously Lift, I am going to rhyme everything not in parenthesis and keep inside parenthsis to a minimum but use them to try and keep my meanings clear for sake of the game, especially when I feel like someone is baiting me or needs something answered and I need to make sure things go smoothly as possible with that. Otherwise, I think people are going to exploit this handicap-punishment and I won't know what to do.)

I guess I can tell you, he didn't say not to,
I have to talk in rhyme until the end of D2.

This is hard, and I'd rather not speak much, at least for
Who knows how long, another week or somesuch?

So I must say, your prompting me to speak in my condition
Doesn't make me pleased with you, it raises my suspicion.

So, I think it is fine to point out behavior one finds scummy in another
It doesn't need to mean that you're helping them like a friend or brother.

If you found something scummy and want to know why (what I meant),
Please just ask me about it, and I will comply, otherwise, get bent (*shrug*)

"you wanted to give me guidance on how to be less scummy but then had second thoughts about doing so"
To me you saying that seems scummy in itself I. M. O. (O rhymes with "so")

Why you would give guidance to someone you don't know (sure we're friends here on GOG but as far as the game goes, we don't know shite about each other, well, I mean, unless you know something...)
Just makes me shrug my shoulders and go "?" (blank-faced stare with a 'WHA?" expression)

If you are town, what you must do, is keep a note about what seems scummy to you:

Either that or:

You can call someone on it (which I like to do) and point it out to everyone else and see the reaction, that is a reasonable action.

But,

Saying "I was going to point out something I thought was scummy from you and then decided not to" is, just, way scummy, IMO, yo.

Please can you quote the post you're referring to?
I'm spending enough time makings rhymes for you.

Man, the way you're phrasing that stuff, just makes me think
you're full of fluff (I mean, you're talking about something, but, then not talking about in any specific kind of way, so it's like you're talking about it without talking about it, and well, to me, I don't get it why you'd do that other than to cause an issue and be scummy? And see, I'm pointing out, specifically, the thing you said that I think seems scummy, I'm not saying "you said something at some point that I thought might be scummy but then I decided not to tell you about it, but I'm going to tell you about not telling you about it. GAH! See, I can't rhyme and communicate all that effectively, please forgive it!)

Turn it around to me?
And cause the viewers more agony with this versing rhyme spree? (like a crime spree)

The only reasons I can see you'd turn it around to me
Is to avoid it yourself essentially, and to see if I could answer profoundly. (aroundtome + profoundly, fuckyeah!)

To answer it, no, I don't think so,
but even if I did, you've got to realize kid (heh, I'm so not calling you "kid"):

I'd rather not speak, I'm fine with the state of things
This rhyming is weak, and I wish you good tidings.

(first of all:)

OMG all that beauty typed and I forgot to actually link the jumping goat, what gall!

(bler) How can you first respond as you did to my quote
and then you continued on and right after and wrote (because, now, despite you being comfy with the P1na vote, you ARE okay discussing things further, even though, of course, that doesn't mean changing the D1 voting, it just means talking about more things, as I asked about in my rhyme):

What the crap? That's what I had said in my rap.

"So, the flip on P1na could prove to us a loss,
it's possible they aren't working for a mafia boss.

I fear it could be true, and that they were "town"
and that we've just taken one of our own down.

Perhaps they are from some other faction
Or that their motives are dictating their action.

Either way their attitude wasn't helpful,
and because of that, their actions are doubtful."

then:

"We just could continue the talks on who is next best (choice as likely scum) "

I said "talks" but you started out talking out about votes, then actually decide to go on to talk a bit in RE: krypsy - after seemingly scummy statements to me that just really confuse me - and I think you're trying to be confusing, see? like I am being here, with the RE: and the Krypsy, I'm not trying to be though, okee? Just giving an example of confusing, like you did me, see?

(you might be going down in suspicion for kryps, and you had been for me too, after some pings to the scumdar earlier, but, now, you're digging yourself deeper, IMO), The more you talk, the more I think you want to be mafia gloating, your P1na vote might be scum-voting scum voting (gloating at the end of the game, having won...that all rhymes, kinda.)

I'm done, for now!
Have fun! "oW" *stubs toe on floor on way off the performance stage*

Would quote, but fixing the quotes on my laptop is painful.

If you think that's baiting, man you set an amazingly low bar. And your punishment from Lift is your punishment - if other players were to avoid engaging you during your period of punishment, well, it's not much of a punishment, is it? In fact, it would, hypothetically, be a tidy little trick for a scum player then to intentionally get such a penalty and then say "Hey, can't talk much for the rest of the day and it's scummy if you try to make me!"

I'm not saying that's what you did, but that is generally the sort of door your response opens up. I could go on at length but will spare everyone, and I shouldn't be here too long.

Did I say you were "scummy" or just did I suggest that, as far as I know, you could be scum? Arguably the worst thing about what I said is the implied LAMIST. In the same way, if you are town, looking around at everyone else at the table, barring some special knowledge (investigation, lovers, etc.) as far as you actually know they are scum. That's distinct from what you suspect.

In line with my prior post, it's also generally frowned on to make a list of "townie." So maybe I have you as leaning townie, maybe I don't. If I do think you're town or leaning-town, stating it out loud at this point in the day is NOT a favor to you, whether you understand that or not. If I have you leaning scum, then I would think my prior post suggests I don't think there's anything about you worth chewing into today.

It's a mystery.

As for me/yogs, I will at least say that, if you are town, creating narratives about relationships amongst other players is best done with care, esp. without any evidence to support it. I mayyyy have gone down this road myself in a prior game and completely tied myself in a knot as a result. My statement about 'second-level' is that, I would at least imagine another player trying to analyze my relationships would tend to conclude that the most probable relationship evidenced would actually be me and you.

Is it possible yogs and I were doing a distancing gambit? Sure, possible from certain viewpoints. But is it plausible? Eh. Now flip the lens and try and look critically how you and I have interacted. When your wagon and P1na's were neck and neck, I jumped in and defended you, and stated I absoluted would not vote you - arguably that's a buddy intervening to try and stop a wagon. Inertia shifts to P1na's wagon, and IIRC it's at that point you start suggesting FoS on my play generally.

Voila - we move closer when intervention may save you, then you push back to distance when you're safe. The nice narrative of a coordinated dance appears.

If one is looking for narratives, that relationship actually looks far more plausible. And while there's an argument as to why scum-you wouldn't make that play, it can be WIFOMed. Now, do you and I know we're not scum-buddies? Sure. Does anyone else who's town doing relationship analysis? No.

The reason likely no one pointed it out is because most of the veterans don't try to crack the whole code at once or do this type of analysis before there are flips to tie it to, but instead, at least to begin, focus on flipping one piece at a time. Could Krypsyn or dedo have made that analysis? Probably. Would they bother? Eh.

So is that analysis me suggesting you are scum? Of course not, since it would also suggest I am scum.

Does that answer your question, without actually coming across as me telling you what you should/shouldn't do?