Gamersgate is known to remove your DRM free download of games in favor of the steam version. I had several games that were DRM free on Gamersgate, but now need steam to re-download. Medieval II: Total War
was one such game for me.

I would not. On GOG I get the installer. On Steam it's 100% reliant on Steam existing. Steam is DRM it's self. You need to have a steam account and internet connection every time you want to install the game. Once I buy a game on GOG, I never have to login again to validate if I have rights to use the game.

I have a few thousand games on Steam. Had my account since 2005. I have never once considered it anything other than a convenience.

Yes GamersGate has replaced files with Steam keys.... which would you rather happen... lose the game altogether or be given a free Steam copy?

In some (I don't know exactly how many sadly) cases it's the publisher coming along, just like they do on GOG, and going 'we don't want to have to pay to support 5 different versions of our game; please stop distributing our files'. In turn GamersGate goes & asks them to replace the games with the supported version.
In some cases this hasn't happened. Like when Paradox decided to break with GamersGate.
All owners of Paradox games on GamersGate were tossed to the curb & there was nothing more GamersGate could do.
I'm still missing keys/files because of Paradox.

GamersGate has had to best customer service for me in all the game stores. Like one game I'm missing very much... Hoyle Card Games. I bought it from GamersGate like 8 years ago; a couple years ago Encore & Hoyle broke with each other & the DRM servers were taken down by one of them; the game no longer worked.
GamersGate informed me of this when queried & did not hesitate to offer me a refund (granted I bought it for only $2 USD...).
I've yet to replace it because Encore is keeping their version of the product at a continuous high price on Steam & Steam alone for $25 local.
Pretty much ditto.

I don't let fear of 'what if' rule me & decide I just want to have fun... even if there is DRM that is shitty, That's the point of games... it comes from my entertainment budget.

My account is I think... 5 months shy of being as old as Steam itself? And it's that way with most of my game accounts... took me a year to join GOG, think my GamersGate account is about a year shy of their start date too.

And I have lost games to DRM & shitty customer service... one of the worst offenders is Direct2Drive where I've lost about a dozen games I think.

Had lots on Desura & it went down with so little warning I didn't have back ups of nearly anything. So much for DRM free saving the world.

---Edit---
Guess I should be a bit clearer... Steam has been a connivance but isn't DRM that I've lost games to...
Pointing out that it's not DRM... it can distributed DRM files... at the publisher's wish. On GOG that just comes do to 'ok we can't add drm? well then we just won't sell there any more' seems a lost cause on these forums.

Plus DRM isn't always in the software... bet lots of the Paradox games on GOG still have their DRM... Paradox uses support blocking as DRM... can't prove you own the product? You don't get access to bug fixes & community help on their forums. And there's lots of fixes there.

But anyhow... that was kind of the point of this thread... someone wanted proof that I wasn't just using hyperbole when I said that even if Steam made it easy to find the drm free games on it that GOG customers would be too scared to try it anyways.

I think it's been proved... now I'm just happy to let the fear mongering continue amongst those who wish & it can devolve into a 'help Mr. K be a good non-gog customer'.

I don't want to defend Steam DRM, but you can backup your Steam games and the client like you backup your offline installers. You can then copy it to another PC and play there without internet connection. No online validation needed. This works for all games, exept the ones with CEG or other third party DRM. More info here:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/how_to_run_steam_games_offline_forever_tutorial/page1

After every game install I run a batch script which zips the Steam folder (without game data) and Steam registry keys. The game backup just includes the game files under common, it's appmanifest*.acf and maybe userdata.
For the convenience you can start Steam in offline mode automatically without login by adding "WantsOfflineMode" "1" and "SkipOfflineModeWarning" "1" to your loginusers.vdf.

Surely it's not comparable to offline installers, but at least the games would still work fine even if you loose your account or Steam vanishes somehow.

Not sure why I'd switch really. I'd continue my current policy of buying on GOG if available and on Steam/Origin/Uplay/Epic if not. Main reason I support GOG is the principle, which Steam gave up long ago, and offline installers, which Steam doesn't have.

what principle did steam give up?

I support GOG because of their DRM free principles. Steam launched as DRM for Half-Life 2, and has never had those principles.

I did not know that.
I've only ever downloaded their free games and seen what happens with them. That and Cloudflare errors put me off them, as I lost all trust.

Every time you want to install the game it requires another download, so not DRM-Free, except if you know what you are doing and backup and rename the downloaded installer file while the installer remains open. It is a bit tricky, but that is the only way to get DRM-Free from GamersGate. I guess it could be considered better than Steam's DRM-Free Lite, because at least you get an installer file. I'd probably call it DRM-Free Savvy, because that's what you need to be.
Mmmm I don't know, I think it is splitting hairs.

If the client is required, it is part of the DRM setup, so essentially one of the DRM ingredients, so at least partially DRM in itself. If it wasn't required, I could agree with you.

Even if just needing the client to download a game, it is a degree of DRM. As it is managing your digital rights for you.

GOG on the other hand, offer you three different ways to download your bought game from them.
1. Galaxy.
2. Browser Links.
3. GOG API ... with some scripting or third party program.

I don't agree it is splitting hairs, as some claim the mere existence of the Steam client means all Steam games have DRM, hence can't be considered DRM-free. I just find that argument completely wrong. There are games on Steam that are completely DRM-free. I bolded up the important part there, games, because I hope that is what we are talking about, not e.g. the service or tool you use to download your game.

As I mentioned with my DEFCON example, a separate client is not needed for DRM. I wouldn't be surprised DEFCON Steam version is similar to GOG version, ie. it can be played without the client, but still the multiplayer has that DRM where it checks that you are not using the same multiplayer key as the other players in the game.

There are lots of other Steam games too where the, at least main, DRM seems to be elsewhere than with the Steam client. For instance Geometry Dash, I think it makes you connect from within the game to the game publisher's service, to play the game.

So to answer your question (ok it wasn't really a question, but whatever), the Steam client is not needed for the DRM in Steam games. It can optionally used for that DRM as well, along with lots of other choices. It is optional for DRM.

I've used several pages and hours of my precious life to explain, why I find that argument totally wrong.

It is like claiming that buying a vacuum cleaner from a store where they say the only option to deliver it to you is UPS, is DRM. So the vacuum cleaner is not DRM-free because the store puts some arbitrary restrictions on the delivery?

We can agree to disagree, but I still haven't found any good argument to convince me that the delivery part of the goods can be considered "DRM", if it doesn't affect you in any way after you have the goods and how you can use it, be it a vacuum cleaner or a digital game from a digital gaming store.

It is a similar flawed argument as to claim that all GOG games have DRM because GOG checks whether you have purchased the game before you can download it, as then they are "digitally managing your downloading rights". Or that how GOG offers only certain ways to pay for your purchases, excluding e.g. using Bitcoins or other crypto currencies for payment, and that somehow makes GOG game DRM-games.

We should be concentrating on how the store is "digitally managing your rights" when you are actually using, ie. playing (and installing on a new computer) the game, not when you are purchasing or downloading the game.

Yes, it is convenient that GOG offers several methods for the goods delivery, also using commonly available tools and clients like web browsers, because it grants me several choices how and where to get my GOG games. Like, with my Raspberry Pi4 computer, a library computer (where I can't install any software of my own, like Galaxy or Steam), or even a mere Android tablet.

Yet, it still has nothing to do with whether the game is DRM-free or not. It is just more convenient that GOG offers those choices, and also that the GOG installers are self-contained and easy to archive.

(Still, as said, I would actually probably prefer if GOG offered the "offline installers" as mere .zip files that you decompress somewhere and then just play, and removing the game is as simple as just deleting that game sub folder...)

I didn't say there weren't some games at Steam that are DRM-Free or DRM-Free Lite. Clearly there are.

I still think you have to count certain aspects of the service to get them as DRM though. It is not a matter of a straight download.

There are of course, many games at Steam that also have their own DRM.

Well I am sorry, but I cannot totally agree with you.

That analogy does not wash with me.
Two things.
If I wanted to pick the cleaner up and I only had a delivery choice, then I would consider it as some kind of DRM going on.
I'm not saying the game or vacuum cleaner itself is DRM, only the method to get it.

We certainly can.
But there is no guarantee you are not affected in any way.
What about updates, DLCs, installing (copying really) on a different OS or a PC with some different configuration.
And while I get your ZIP only would be better argument, there are sometimes reasons for running an installer. It would depend on the game though.

Steam does more than the check GOG does. It requires that your client file be the latest. So that is checked too, and in my case always seems to require a download of a new version. It is controlling my access beyond whether I own the game or not. It can be responsible for major holdups and even failures on occasion. That's the perils of tricky tricky.

Personally I think DRM extends beyond just playing.
It is also about how you get to the point of playing.

Anyway, as you said, looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I see your point and you are fully entitled to it, despite how I personally feel or believe.

What I see in this thread...while there are some who still realize what DRM is, there are some who are fighting to say that the iconic DRM of the past is NOT actually DRM. Who would have thought...

From Wikipedia

DRM technologies try to control the use, modification, and distribution of copyrighted works (such as software and multimedia content), as well as systems within devices that enforce these policies.[3]

Steam MAY contain games which it allows you to use and modify after installing without ever opening Steam, HOWEVER...Steam still is DRM as per the third part of the idea.

If you have NO OTHER choice but to connect to the internet and download and install a game using ONLY their client in a monopolistic fashion, they are indeed, controlling the distribution of the work.

We can disagree all we want, but the fact is that Steam IS DRM. The irony is it wasn't Steam that originally pushed for this method of control but Microsoft. With Windows XP they started where you could only authenticate from them directly on their servers, though they DID offer a few other measures for those who did not have internet at the time, as well as OEM and other measures for mass producers of computers or network administrators.

Their grip has only tightened since then.

Gradually through their efforts and others, what used to be seen as HIGHLY intrusive and even akin to viruses and other unwanted measures...the DRM that used to be avoided at all costs has now been seen as useful, and at points by people, even desired.

How crazy the world turns.

Imagine a world where you could just get any OS, any game, and anything you wanted without ever having to pay a subscription fee or even connecting to the internet if you didn't want to in order to install or use it on your computer. Imaginie a world where you could do what you wanted on a computer and never have to have it online, making it impossible for others to try to do things to it if you didn't want it to.

We, in the West , have become so used to DRM that we have people in this very thread trying to state that the iconic DRM for games is NOT DRM.

Think about that...this is how brainwashed a LOT have become in our present day.

I use the DRM when I have to, but the DRM is also a reason I have a Linux computer and other things which offer me the ability to avoid it if I want because I still remember the day when DRM was NOT cool, and Steam was seen as one of the most intrusive (and virus like) DRMs out there.

That it is now seen by some as not being DRM in all cases just signifies how far from the tree we have wandered.

True, but that's nothing new. It didn't start with this thread. GOG forums have had Steam defenders claiming that Steam DRM is not DRM for many years.

It happens literally every single time that anyone ever brings up the fact that Steam is DRM.

But they don't, because you can do it without their client.

See here:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_free_on_steam_vs_gog_poll/post68

Oh don't even bother... they're too dense :-D
I literally... literally mind you, linked them to documentation that would let them write their own downloaders if they had the brains. :-D

The only "dense" and "brainless" people here seem to be those who (suspiciously) over-advertise Steam games with a wall of spam links under the guise of "seeking a conversation" including this "probably client-free" list...

...when a quick glance at literally just the first page alone and cross-checking with PCGW and the DRM-Free on Steam list shows half the games (Beat Saber, Medieval II: Total War, Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion, Blade & Sorcery, Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga, Risk of Rain 2, Touhou Luna Nights, Unheard, etc) you're educating the "stupid" people here about the DRM-Free on Steam nature of, are in fact all stuffed full of Steamworks DRM...