SuperLibby72: So you want DRM?

PixelBoy: That is annoying, but it's only a one-time problem.
When you use Steam client to download the game once, after that you can just back it up and use it later as you like. In some ways it's even more convenient than GOG installers. For instance, with GOG games I have to back them up twice, first as installers and then as installed folders to have them readily available.

mrkgnao: On the contrary. I don't want it. I only buy DRM-free/client-free games on Steam (I have not even installed the steam client, just like I haven't installed galaxy).

I want GOG to mark those games that already have "single-player elements that require online connection and/or a client" (like Absolver or CP2077), as well as those that are sure to come, so I know not to buy them.

timppu: The client itself is totally irrelevant to the definition of DRM. It is what that client is requiring you to do that defines whether it is DRM or not.

Timboli: As I said earlier, the Steam DRM-Free Lite and GOG DRM-Free are just not comparable. One (GOG) has far greater flexibility, the other (Steam) doesn't.

Timboli: Downloading Offline Installers is much quicker than downloading and installing with the Steam Client or Galaxy. I doubt there is much difference in time, to download and manually install versus using a client to do it all.

AB2012: 1. Clients are 'wrappers' for one store and that's their only feature. Browsers aren't. If a new version of a browser (eg, Firefox) doesn't work with gog.com another (Chrome) will. Or an older version. Or a fork (eg, Vivaldi / Pale Moon). Or another device (Android tablet / Raspberry Pi). The only way browsers will ever be just like clients is for Firefox to only access mozilla.org, for Chrome to only access google.com, etc. So no, browsers aren't DRM (except for playing paid for "browser games" (flash).

2 & 3. People desire DRM-Free games because of game preservation / some guarantee of having long-term control & replayability in years to come. DRM gets in the way of that. So too does other stuff that isn't DRM. Years ago it was easy to separate them, eg, typing in a serial key offline and GameSpy were clearly not the same thing. Today they are being increasingly deliberately merged into dual use. Eg, A modern account-dependent online multiplayer game will usually do two checks at the same time : 1. Does this person own this game, and 2. Is there zero ongoing account bans for cheating for this player. They are both done by the same API on the same account at the same time upon starting the game. So in reality, "yes but anti-cheat programs / online dependencies aren't intended to be DRM" becomes meaningless semantics when they do double-duty by design.

Clients are often the same when it comes to say, Epic Games version of Alien Isolation or Steam version of Cognition, both of which "play" but can't save without the client because what should be a core part of the game code has been dumped on the client. Your Right to save the game is being Digitally Managed by the middleware client, and what wasn't intended to be DRM ends up exactly like functional DRM. The fact clients are constantly pushing the boundaries of wanting to handle more and more stuff that should be in game is exactly what's causing them to trend to increasingly acting little different to DRM, and inevitably stuff like this will be treated no different to online DRM if it insists on functioning exactly like it.

4. "Downloading from the Internet for the first time" isn't classed as DRM any more than "I need to drive a car to get to the store to buy a DVD-ROM" was. It's just false over-extrapolation. How it gets downloaded is another matter (see below).

AB2012: There are plenty of issues that arise. Eg, if you have to use an older OS whether through choice or necessity (no TPM = No Windows 11) and yet that client was locked to the newest OS (whilst the games ran fine on your OS), or perhaps something undesirable (extensive data harvesting) was introduced in a new version of a client that was bad enough to cause you to click "Decline" and it refused to install, clearly you wouldn't be able to download the game via a client even for the first time. Exactly why compulsory client and a multitude of browsers to choose from aren't the same thing.

And I speak as the person who created and is maintaining the Epic Games That Work Without The Client thread, to say it's starting to become a massive pain in the rear to keep re-downloading, re-testing, etc, every new version of every game claimed to be DRM-Free due to stuff changing in patches. Oh look, here's another new issue to deal with... The workload for actually maintaining a DRM-Free game in terms of being guaranteed DRM-Free patches or not very definitely isn't even on the same planet as DRM-Free offline installers.

nightcraw1er.488: 1) no. You are free to choose whichever browser you want, or write your own, or use command line. Are they proprietary closed, a lot are yes, so you don’t have control over the app itself. That isn’t drm, but it also does not give power to the user, so control at a certain level.
2/3) clients in general are not necessarily drm. They can include such things, and are very heavily focused on always online, and so are inherently out of the users control. They are also proprietary, and unlike a browser you have no options on what you use or how.
4) no. Downloading is a method of acquiring your product, the same as going to a store. Control comes in when it’s not a one stop shop, I.e. you have to return to the internet each time. So online multiplayer, online achievements, online saves, online xyz, are all control mechanisms.

You will note I don’t use drm, rather control mechanisms. DRM is actually a fairly small point, if far more well known, in the great scheme of things. It’s all about controlling, milking, and monopolising your customers. You can see this in the online gating for certain content, pre order locked content, Kickstarter content, all methods of locking users in. Online works both ways for pubs/devs, they not only control their user base, they can milk the data collected for their own goals, not saying it’s all malicious, but even game time and things can be used (and in some cases misused). The next level to this of course is streaming (and mmos and such like). Take the product fully out of the users hands and allow them access when and if you decide and how you want. It is the ultimate in control leaving the user with nothing and the dev with complete control over product and anything associated with it.

So really it’s two fold:
1) will the game files that I have run on my disconnected machine fully. This depends on various factors like drm, online gating, client requirement, compatability.
2) do I actually own/control my product. This is a more wide reaching thing.

For me, the internet is a means to get something to me, like the post. After that I disconnect it. Anything further is outside of my control. Sure you have to pay for and download something, just like you have to pay for postage or go to the shop, but you should not have to do that each time, nor fill in forms detailing all your data every time either.

PixelBoy: I don't know how you have measured that, but at least to me Steam downloads are always faster than GOG.
Steam can be criticised for many reasons, but download speeds are not one of them.

With smaller files there's probably no meaningful difference, but if the game is many GB in size, you need to wait for a long time for that download from GOG to finish.

I don't know about Galaxy and how that compares, because I don't see the point of using a client in a DRM-free store.

PixelBoy: I don't know how you have measured that, but at least to me Steam downloads are always faster than GOG.
Steam can be criticised for many reasons, but download speeds are not one of them.

With smaller files there's probably no meaningful difference, but if the game is many GB in size, you need to wait for a long time for that download from GOG to finish.

I don't know about Galaxy and how that compares, because I don't see the point of using a client in a DRM-free store.

KnightW0lf: "Low rated" thats basically why people hate the gog forums and gog users on them, most gog friendly people avoid forums because of this because there are some rude people on here
KnightW0lf:

KnightW0lf: ]
got ya, epic games is a browser it runs on Chromium

mrkgnao: I was willing to pay this huge difference for the convenience (and, silly me, to support GOG), but once I learned that you don't need the steam client at all to buy/download/install/play games on steam and once GOG had placed one too many straws on the camel's back, not anymore.

Timboli: Sure, the ZOOM Platform is okay and now seems to be slowly getting better, but they still have a long way to go. Other than that, no other store is solely dedicated to DRM-Free ... for the single player aspect at least.

PixelBoy: I don't know how you have measured that, but at least to me Steam downloads are always faster than GOG.
Steam can be criticised for many reasons, but download speeds are not one of them.

With smaller files there's probably no meaningful difference, but if the game is many GB in size, you need to wait for a long time for that download from GOG to finish.

PixelBoy: I don't know about Galaxy and how that compares, because I don't see the point of using a client in a DRM-free store.

PixelBoy: Fireflower Games.

http://fireflowergames.com

timppu: