I forgot about that weird thing that in english thumbs are not fingers.

Edit: Except for when they are. "English dictionaries describe finger as meaning either one of the five digits including the thumb, or one of the four excluding the thumb" according to wikipedia. So yeah, I wasn't wrong, and if I were it would be because english is weird and you drive on the wrong side of the road.

It's hard to know who to root for when both are terrible customer-abusive companies...

I don't see how Epic can win this since they agreed to Apple's TOS, unless it's the retaliatory punishment that's breaking some law or something.

But if Epic wins does that mean we are also no longer bound by TOS?

If Apple wins it just solidifies their right to be a shitty abusive company...

root for neither. Rooting for any giant business out for your money and nothing else is silly.

It's not a TOS issue that Epic is bringing up, it's a monopoly issue. Apple's 30% cut on all purchases of apps and in app purchases, forcing everything to be in app only (even external FAQs are against Apple's TOS, subscriptions are another huge issue). It's forcing much smaller developers, who do not wish to just have a free game with loot boxes, out of the mobile space.

Epic actually have a good case, especially as the big tech companies are being grilled by world governments over their shady business practices, which puts a whole lot of pressure on Apple and Google. It's a whole complicated mess, but no, it does not mean you are no longer bound to TOS, unless those TOS are deemed not legally binding.

Polygon with a detailed analysis into the whole Epic v. Apple & Epic v. Google battle:
https://www.polygon.com/2020/8/17/21372119/fortnite-apple-google-sued-epic-games-lawsuit

Also, Steam is not allowing for dev's and pub's to promote Non-Steam versions on Steam anymore:
Steamworks FAQ - https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/community#6
News from RPS - https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2020/08/17/steam-now-prohibits-developers-promoting-other-distribution-outlets-in-community-hubs/

My point is, when Epic signed up to publish their stuff through Apple, they agreed to certain Terms of Service; They violated those terms of service, which is why Apple cut them off. This is not in dispute.

Now they're having a hissy fit about it, when really they shouldn't have agreed to those terms in the first place. I don't see how they can argue about it any more than we can when we get stung by shitty TOS.

The fact that those terms are shitty and abusive is nothing new - Apple are probably up there with the worst but, this is the same argument we're subjected to when we're forced to either accept shitty terms, or not have the thing we want.

(Most people opt for option 1 and bend over, which is why e.g. Apple, Steam etc. have such a big following, because they'd rather sacrifice their rights than not have the Shiny Thing)

But that's why I don't see how Epic can win - They agreed to those terms. And even if they win the case for TOS with shitty terms being invalid, they and most companies will be open to similar lawsuits, because almost all modern TOS are of similar shittiness.
I guess it will come down to who has the best lawyers and who knows which people to bribe.


I do applaud what they are doing, i.e. fighting against abusive and unfair TOS, but they are by no means innocent in the matter, and the fact that Apple has a monopoly on Apple products won't even feature - You may as well argue Google or Microsoft or John Deere or Tesla or whoever have a monopoly over their respective fields.

I mean, heck, Microsoft has held a virtual monopoly on the PC market for decades and nothing has succeeded in dislodging that; They've even released one of the most hated and user-abusive revisions of their damned OS (i.e. Win10) and even that hasn't had anything done about it. The EU punished them for shitty practices in earlier versions of Windows but not a thing has been done about the breaches of data privacy, unsolicited advertisements and program installation etc.. I was among a minority calling for a boycott when XP introduced online activation because I could see where that was going but the F'ing in the A wasn't brusing too bad and most people just got used to it, and now we're here with Windows 10.

Google has virtually succeeded in monopolising the Web - You need Chrome or a Chrome-based browser to get full functionality in more and more sites; Even using a Moz-based browser (Who are already a shitty company) is often like being a pre-Chrome Opera user in terms of page compatibility! They've practically succeeded in doing what Microsoft tried to do with IE4 with proprietary extensions but apparently this is fine.


I get why - The alternatives are scary and hard and modern users are not like early people who had to read manuals and figure out Hayes dialing strings to get their computer to load anything or even get online - but it's for that reason I can't see this getting better.


The one hope I have about this is for it to highlight how much you're being increasingly F'ed in the A by agreeing to these abusive TOS, not just Apple, but Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Epic, Valve, Tesla, John Deere, Monsanto etc. instead of just walking away, but my faith in humanity is quite low these days.

Surprised it didn't happen sooner! Am slightly offended that GOG wasn't enough of a competitor to trigger that and it took EGS to do it! :P

I thinks it is enough of a competitor to trigger

Keep in mind that piranhas are cannibals.

it's not even a cat fight, epic cut apple pay out, so they got booted then google just booted them shortly after yet they r still on some other platforms i saw someone previously mentioned somewhere

And nails! Don't forget the nails!

Realistically speaking, Epic is possibly hoping that Apple (and Google) would lower the 30% cut they take from the game income. Either willingly, or by court's decision.

Anyway, then Apple and Google would have to lower it to all of their partners, not just Epic. And what would be the "right" cut anyway? 20%? 10%? 1%? How the heck do you decide something like that? Doesn't it depend on what the Apple or Google ecosystem is offering for that cut, what kind of support, development tools, APIs, services etc.?

Would Epic be ok that I would release a free-to-play game (with microtransactions) on their Epic Store, and then not letting them to get any cut from the microtransactions? If they kicked my game out of the Epic Store, I'd sue!

More giant monopolies join the fight:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53888087

Funny, the last line mentions that M$ do exactly the same on their store!

Apple draws first blood:
Apple can block Epic's Fortnite but not Unreal Engine
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53902659

They all do the 15-30% standard cut.

Of course, Epic's own store does 12% to 3rd parties. And even more discounts, if you're a dev/pub and do join them and also use Unreal Engine.

One major difference: Apple's App Store is the only way to get stuff for Apple products, unless they approve your app to sell there...which likely won't happen. Apple's mostly a closed platform. It's Apple Store or bust, deal w/ the 30% fee or bust - just to get on an Apple platform.

And pretty much: Apple's the king of the mobile arena. It certainly ain't Windows; Windows Phones and Tablets failed.

About Microsoft's Store on Windows PC - eh, not the same entirely. Microsoft is not regulating apps or blocking games over on Windows PC's. Epic created their own Game Store app and Microsoft isn't blocking it. Windows OS is a bit more open, by nature & design.

If Fortnite isn't on Microsoft Store - which, BTW, isn't the most popular Windows PC Gaming Store here - There's 20,000 game stores (not literally, but you get my drift, as there's a bunch of game-store on PC) for Epic to get their game Fortnite & Unreal Engine onto for the Windows platform. Nobody's regulating the cuts the distributor takes; as Epic offers 12% cut to those who join up w/ them.

For the Windows Platform - Epic can always go to EA to get their game on Origin, Ubi to get their game on UPlay, Bethesda for Bethesda.Net, Blizzard for Battle.Net, and any other place that has a Game-Client Store/App - if they want to sell Fortnite and Unreal Engine outside of Epic Store on the Windows Platform.

Heck, now Epic has their own store on Windows even. Microsoft didn't block them. Epic can make 100% of their Epic Store sales, if they want, from their own store.