It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Today, we bid farewell to the legendary post-apocalyptic 2D classics.

Due to circumstances beyond our control, we needed to pull the three classic Fallout games, that is Fallout, Fallout 2, and Fallout Tactics, from sale and remove them from our DRM-free catalog. These classic titles have been with us since day one, that is for over 5 years now, and they were always one of the highlights of the selection of games that we offer. There are very few titles in the history of computer role-playing games, that have had so much impact on the gaming landscape, players' expectations, and even the popular culture. The iconic setting, the memorable quotes, and unparalleled amount of fun and challenge these games provide--it's all burned in the memory of a whole generation of gamers. Probably even more than just one generation. It was an honor to have you here, Fallout. Take good care of yourself out there, try not to mistake a gecko for G.E.C.K. (not even remotely the same thing!), and remember to take your Rad-X pills!

<img src="http://www.gog.com/upload/images/2013/12/0100650e79ca7799caa0064b2e2611a62396ed6f.png">

All those who acquired Fallout, Fallout 2, or Fallout Tactics on GOG.com prior to the date of removal (that is before Tuesday, December 31st 2013, at 3:59PM GMT), will still be able to download the games' install files (as well as the bonus content) via the "My Games" section of their user accounts. Gift-codes for these three games acquired in our recent giveaway are no longer valid. However, if you own a gift-code for any or all of them that was purchased outside of the said giveaway, you'll still be able to redeem it in the foreseeable future.

We sincerely apologize for all the inconvenience this situation may have caused you. We invite you to browse through 671 other fantastic titles offered in our DRM-free catalog of the best games in history, and we wish you a Happy New Year of gaming!
avatar
CarrionCrow: I know I've spread a lot of negative feeling about on this thread, so I thought that maybe I should present something that'll bring people together a little bit.
And so, in that spirit, feel free to just throw out there what series from the past has ended up letting you down horribly in the present. Maybe this thread can serve to help people vent a little bit.
I'll start -
Fallout. (For obvious reasons.)
Castlevania. (PC version, at least. It's like the developers of that series have multiple personality syndrome. The ones for 3/DS/whatever actually look good at a glance.)
Final Fantasy. (This one started going to hell around 7 for me. 7 might as well be entitled "You think this one causes misgivings about the direction of the series? Well hang onto your shit, you haven't seen ANYTHING yet.)
Gothic. (3 had its issues, but community patches made it quite playable so as of now it isn't that bad. Everything that came out after it... different story).
Heroes of Might and Magic (4 and 6. They may have some good things about them, but not enough to outweigh the drawbacks. I know some people don't like 5 as well, but IMO the only problem with it was about the graphic part).
Disciples (3 could have been received better if it didn't have "Disciples" in its title and had less code in its bugs).
Max Payne (3. It severely lacks the ability to steal cars and for some reasons has two words in its title instead of three. Should've been called Max Theft Auto).
Stronghold (1+crusader were good. The rest... is silence).

And we shall see what the next Fallout (4? Online?) will be like.
avatar
doady: The publisher is not like a bank. They don't loan to developers anything. A loan would mean developers pay it back and get to keep the profits and become self-sufficient (no more loans needed). In reality, the publisher typically keeps all the profits, and the retain all the rights of the game and the IP. The developer gets absolutely nothing beyond the "loan". Once the developer finishes their game, they have no control over it. And once they finish their game, they will need another "loan" to continue to exist as a company and work a game.
Well, the bank also doesn't publish, market or do anything else for a game. One of the reasons developers choose publishers aside from money, is because the publishers have experience/expertise in distributing/promoting a game which the developers might lack. And no, the IP doesn't automatically land into the publisher's hands, it's all about the deals. Consider Croteam for a moment. Despite deals with various publishers over the years, they still have control of the Serious Sam IP.
avatar
HypersomniacLive: From the IGN article:

Bethesda, pleased with the team’s work, promised Human Head a development extension of six months to one year

The promise, however, was not inked on the contract, so Bethesda had no legal obligation to fulfill it.
avatar
HypersomniacLive: And that was the studio's mistake and that seems to be the problem more often than not - why rely on (oral) promises that are not turned into legally binding terms for both sides?
Because most small studios are not filled with cynical lawyers perhaps? And what if the publisher refuses to write down their verbal promises? Those are usually made after the devs are already bind to contracts that they can't break without severe consequences so all they get from the refusal is the advance warning for their employees to seek new jobs as soon as possible.

avatar
JohnnyDollar: Sounds like they need to close those loopholes...
avatar
JohnnyDollar: That's the cold reality of it, I suppose, at least for the devs that find themselves in that vulnerable position.
avatar
JohnnyDollar: The point I was trying to make was that the publishers provide funding, and there's stipulations involved. I should have just said that instead of comparing it to getting a loan from a bank.

Perhaps more dev studios should start out with smaller projects and a smaller budget. There's also crowd funding that some are using, though as Yause pointed out in post 695, crowd funders are raising fusses due to several allegations.
As stated above, the developers are not the ones with resources to have the best legal advise where as the publishers have until recently been the gatekeepers that dictate the terms as the modern games tend to cost too much for any startup developer to produce on his own.

Crowd funding has evened out the playing field somewhat, but now the devs and gamers need to adapt to it by having the former starting to polish even the pre alpha material while the latter needs to learn that in the old model of game development they never got to see any screenshots that were still missing textures or effects.
avatar
Grargar: Well, the bank also doesn't publish, market or do anything else for a game. One of the reasons developers choose publishers aside from money, is because the publishers have experience/expertise in distributing/promoting a game which the developers might lack. And no, the IP doesn't automatically land into the publisher's hands, it's all about the deals. Consider Croteam for a moment. Despite deals with various publishers over the years, they still have control of the Serious Sam IP.
Right, and the publishers already have working relationships with retailers too.

As you said, some studios sign with publishers and still retain all of the rights. I'm thinking that's the case with Project Eternity, or maybe it's Wasteland II, I can't remember. I'm pretty sure it's one of those popular kickstarter games. I recall reading a dev blog where they stated that they were working with one of the big publishers for distribution, maybe Deep Silver..

That's one good thing about DD with PC gaming. Valve and others are providing a venue for studios to sell their games without necessarily having to spend a lot on promotion and manufacturing and distribution, and whatever other costs typically involved

It seems that right now is probably as good a time as there ever was for a small studio to develop games and grow.
Whether it's "what a company does" or not, this does nothing but add my contempt for Bethesda.
avatar
JAAHAS: As stated above, the developers are not the ones with resources to have the best legal advise where as the publishers have until recently been the gatekeepers that dictate the terms as the modern games tend to cost too much for any startup developer to produce on his own.
If that's the case then so be it, but if studio heads are agreeing to contracts without understanding what's printed, then they are asking for negative repercussions. I doubt most out there have much sympathy for those scenarios.

I suspect there's more to it than that. Rare instances yes, but I would like to think that that isn't too common. It seems more plausible to me that the studios are signing the farm away because of the precarious position that they've found themselves in, or what they have forecast themselves to be in, if they don't sign it.

That brings me to the notion that the studios don't have enough assets to support their ambitious projects and make payroll for any number of reasons. And that notion brings me to what I said earlier. Maybe too many studios are taking on projects too large and need to scale it back to break away? This discussion has reminded me of 38 Studios.
Post edited January 07, 2014 by JohnnyDollar
avatar
JAAHAS: the publishers have until recently been the gatekeepers that dictate the terms as the modern games tend to cost too much for any startup developer to produce on his own.
Yep, that's why stuff like Minecraft flopped so hard...
avatar
Ti74Raven: That's just it though. I love Morrowind to death, I have spent thousands upon thousands of hours in Vvardenfell. It was and is amazing. (Though I would kill for new animations...and to be frank dice-roll first person combat has not aged well...)
avatar
Ewu: What do you mean with "dice-roll first person combat"? The possibility to miss with melee swings?
For me that's actually one of the strong points Morrowind has over the newer Elder Scroll games. The progression from being a weakling, barely able to hit a rat with a sword to a mighty hero, strong enough to slay the demi-god Vivec worked very well in Morrowind. Additionally the gameworld is probably the most interesting Bethesda has ever done.
Morrowind is far from being a perfect game but it's the last Bethesda game I really enjoyed playing.

Oblivion shares it's positives with all newer Bethesda games: great modability, lore and a huge world to explore (although Cyrodiil is extremely generic fantasyland with far worse world design than Morrowind and Skyrim).
It was completely destroyed by the terrible level scaling (I don't like it in general but it was implemented in almost the worst way possible here), the cringeworthy writing outside of lore, the uninspired quest design and lack of C&C.

Writing, world & quest design were actually one of my biggest gripes with FO3 as well. It could have been a decent game if Bethesda had improved these things.
Case in point, I actually like Obsidian's New Vegas. It shares some downsides with all newer Bethesda games: Clunky, unstable engine and less than perfect combat. But it actually feels like a Fallout game, the writing is not the best I've ever seen but lightyears ahead of everything Bethesda ever did (especially in the DLC campaigns!), it has lots of branching dialogues and C&C (although Obsidian chickened out several times, adding so many alternative paths leading to the same goal that it's almost impossible not to succeed no matter what). The world and quest design is far superior. And Obsidian actually took the effort of making a huge, branching main quest with several fail saves in case the player kills everyone instead of taking Bethesda's lazy route of simply making every second character immortal.

avatar
Ti74Raven: My point is, I love the old games, they were great. The new games are different, but they're still pretty darn good games. People call FF7 garbage all the time, it didn't earn it's reputation from being trashy though. It's just cool to hate on newer stuff these days. So that's what all the cool kids do.
avatar
Ewu: While I'm of course super cool, I don't hate new games in general, there are many new games I enjoy (like New Vegas). I just genuinely dislike everything Bethesda has done in recent years, which is especially frustrating as their games are right up my alley in theory (open world RPGs) but after having fun exploring heavily modded worlds for a while I always hit a point where I just can't stand the tedious combat, writing and quest design any longer.
Dice roll first person combat. As in you have to look at the thing to attack it...and it still rolls a die to see if you hit, even though you were already aiming straight at it. If the thing blocks or dodges, that's fine, animate that. However using a dice roll along with a mechanic where you already have to aim is sloppy at best. I love Morrowind to death, but that was already barely acceptable combat when it came out. Now it's a just plain sloppy system, ie the new systems are improved and still have growth to them.
That's not to say the new systems couldn't use some depth, like using a Chivalry type combat system that would maintain the slash/thrust/chop power on each weapon like Morrowind had, that would be great. Thank god the dice rolls to hit are gone though. Rolling to hit is for turn based, not action games. Also would like spears and the other interesting weapons back. On the other hand thank god Skyrim finally made magic feel more badass (and made being a pure mage more possible, Morrowind and Oblivion you almost always had to start as more of a "Battle Mage" and move toward pure mage). I want the Spellmaking altars back though.

I agree the level scaling shouldn't exist as it is...I hate level scaling, always will. Areas also need to change over time though. It makes sense if I kill all the bandits in an area, maybe some trolls or other wildlife would move in, level scaling done like that would be nice. Otherwise going back into "low level" zones would be boring as hell no matter what you were doing there. No fun just waltzing through and murdering mudcrabs or low level bandits.

As for Oblivion's less interesting terrain, keeping with lore it was always a lush foresty area. Yeah it's generic, but it's what they already established Cyrodiil to be. The ruins and Oblivion gates were a good way to break it up and get you a different feel.
They blended it with Skyrim, Valenwood, Hammerfell and Blackmarsh quite well for the future (Elsweyr needed to be a bit more jungle-y and some desert in the distance would have been a nice addition, but you couldn't see terribly far into Elsweyr). They got a nice natural flow to the terrain. In a lot of ways that was better than Morrowind where you walk over a hill and everything is completely different. Ashlands to lush greenery in but a few steps is a little too cut and dry realistically. At least going from forests to plains to snowy mountains felt a little more natural in Cyrodiil and Skyrim. At the same time though Vvardenfell was supposed to be sort of unnatural alien and weird, and the sudden terrain changes aided that feel so it wasn't really too bad.

Quest design wise, I have to knock it a bit here too. Morrowind was littered with fetch quests...I couldn't turn a corner without getting like 3 more fetch quests. They were a little easier to ignore because they eventually ended up so many pages back in the journal that I'd forget about them, rather than sitting in a log.
But for every interesting quest, there was at least a dozen "Go get me mushrooms" Oblivion and Skyrim are the same way. You have the super fun stuff like the final few Thieves Guild quests in Oblivion. Getting Azura's star in Skyrim, the Oasis stuff in FO3...fun quests like that...but for every one of them there is 12 fetch quests sitting in your log. (Same goes for the old Fallout games)
This seems to be a pervasive problem with RPG games in general though, not just Bethesda.

Dialogue in the newer games is a little more limited because it's all voiced, not just the main NPCs. So they're paying actors for a lot if they make too many unique lines for merchants etc. I can let the repeated lines go on that one.
A lot of the quest and story writing definitely wasn't as in depth as Morrowind either, but Morrowind had next to no voice acting, which leaves a lot more room for those huge paragraphs of deep background text when you aren't paying someone to read them 25x each until they get them right. Also most of the "Gaming" audience already gets impatient with RPG text as it is. So they have to find a balance between tons of background, and just getting to the point. While you and I might prefer a lot of background info and fluffy text, there's probably 5 more people that would prefer the NPC just cut to the chase. They still have to make a profit, or the whole series goes kaput.
Post edited January 08, 2014 by Ti74Raven
high rated
avatar
JAAHAS: Because most small studios are not filled with cynical lawyers perhaps? And what if the publisher refuses to write down their verbal promises? Those are usually made after the devs are already bind to contracts that they can't break without severe consequences so all they get from the refusal is the advance warning for their employees to seek new jobs as soon as possible.

As stated above, the developers are not the ones with resources to have the best legal advise where as the publishers have until recently been the gatekeepers that dictate the terms as the modern games tend to cost too much for any startup developer to produce on his own.

Crowd funding has evened out the playing field somewhat, but now the devs and gamers need to adapt to it by having the former starting to polish even the pre alpha material while the latter needs to learn that in the old model of game development they never got to see any screenshots that were still missing textures or effects.
Sorry, but this almost sounds like small studios and startup devs live under a rock until they decide to go into game development, thus have absolutely no clue or intel on how things work in the industry and what the story and rumours about each publisher are.

As I already said, if a publisher refuses to put their promises in writing, then you can't rely on them as there's no guarantee (i.e. legal binding) that the pub will see them through. And you don't need the best legal counselling to understand that a business contract is a legally binding paper that will result in unpleasant consequences if you don't keep your part of the deal.
Starting a studio means running a business and I read, more often than not, stories about how they have no idea what that entails which seems to cause a lot of their problems in many cases.

Of course they should dream big, but not lose sight of the fact that without any means of their own it's wiser to start small or at least smaller than some do. The industry is a battlefield and success rarely comes over night. Is it really such a bad concept to do your best to keep the risk of you getting driven out of business (and into personal debt in some cases) as low as possible at your early steps?
It's sad how start-up devs and small studios seem to fail at protecting themselves from the beginning thus leaving plenty of playground for publishers to screw them in all ways possible. This is not meant in defence of the pubs, I just sometimes feel that the little guy needs to take responsibility and do their best to not end up as the irrelevant tiny guy.

And coming back to the Interplay - Bethesda disaster, I still can't fathom how Herve Caen thought/ believed that they company could deliver on all the requirements (that is taking into account the state Interplay was in and that they had no concrete plan already in place) and signed a contract that basically was "deliver or die" in all aspects and terms. Did he really need top-notch legal counselling to understand the huge risk he took?

Just my 2c.
avatar
geminidomino: Sadly, looking at Skyrim, there's evidence that they'll do just that. :(
avatar
BillyMaysFan59: Well, at least Steam (from what I heard) is one of the less restrictive forms of DRM out there, so I guess it isn't the most horrible way to purchase games, but I don't like DRM at all, so I never bothered joining Steam. It does support Linux though...

And it does have Age of Empires 2 :-)

Even if I do join Steam, I'm still going to give most of my business to GOG with regards to game purchases. In fact, GOG would be my first choice
I'm on the other end of it. I'm one of the handful of "nut jobs" (as we've been called, among less nice things) who cancelled my steam account over that TOS change a few years back, so I will literally never buy another Steam anything.

The ironic part was that it was barely a week before that when I finally said "you know, maybe I'm just being paranoid. Yeah, if I lose my account, I'm out everything I paid, but they've been pretty stand-up for years now. Might as well give them a chance." Talk about "Schmuck Bait (TvTropes Warning)."

So I was only out about $70 total, but AFAIC, Valve is permanently at EA's level now. The good part is that it makes me fanboy that much harder over GOG. :)
avatar
BillyMaysFan59: Well, at least Steam (from what I heard) is one of the less restrictive forms of DRM out there, so I guess it isn't the most horrible way to purchase games, but I don't like DRM at all, so I never bothered joining Steam. It does support Linux though...

And it does have Age of Empires 2 :-)

Even if I do join Steam, I'm still going to give most of my business to GOG with regards to game purchases. In fact, GOG would be my first choice
avatar
geminidomino: I'm on the other end of it. I'm one of the handful of "nut jobs" (as we've been called, among less nice things) who cancelled my steam account over that TOS change a few years back, so I will literally never buy another Steam anything.

The ironic part was that it was barely a week before that when I finally said "you know, maybe I'm just being paranoid. Yeah, if I lose my account, I'm out everything I paid, but they've been pretty stand-up for years now. Might as well give them a chance." Talk about "Schmuck Bait (TvTropes Warning)."

So I was only out about $70 total, but AFAIC, Valve is permanently at EA's level now. The good part is that it makes me fanboy that much harder over GOG. :)
Yeah, even though Linux support is quite attractive, GOG is still miles better in my book, since it is DRM-free, and not the DRM empire that Steam is. (Which is why I STILL don't have a Steam account)

And I guess you could say that Linux is *unofficially* supported here, with all kinds of tips and tricks given by community members in GOGmixes and forum posts and what have you, to explain how to get the games working in Linux. Not to mention I actually HAVE a lot of the games working here. ;)

Yep, a lot of reasons I don't use steam powered engines.
avatar
JAAHAS: the publishers have until recently been the gatekeepers that dictate the terms as the modern games tend to cost too much for any startup developer to produce on his own.
avatar
Ti74Raven: Yep, that's why stuff like Minecraft flopped so hard...
Minecraft's success was one of the main factors that proved to many aspiring game developers that there is a way to succeed without being slaved under a publisher's boot.

avatar
JAAHAS: Because most small studios are not filled with cynical lawyers perhaps? And what if the publisher refuses to write down their verbal promises? Those are usually made after the devs are already bind to contracts that they can't break without severe consequences so all they get from the refusal is the advance warning for their employees to seek new jobs as soon as possible.
avatar
HypersomniacLive: Sorry, but this almost sounds like small studios and startup devs live under a rock until they decide to go into game development, thus have absolutely no clue or intel on how things work in the industry and what the story and rumours about each publisher are.
Game development is a rather new profession and I would guess that even today not many starting developers have any got any degree on it. Publishers on the other hand are very skilled at suppressing anyone not willing to commit a professional and financial suicide from telling to the public how badly they were threated. They can pressure gaming "journalists" to not give their games bad reviews, now imagine what they can do to someone who they can actually sue for leaking "vital business information"?

avatar
HypersomniacLive: As I already said, if a publisher refuses to put their promises in writing, then you can't rely on them as there's no guarantee (i.e. legal binding) that the pub will see them through. And you don't need the best legal counselling to understand that a business contract is a legally binding paper that will result in unpleasant consequences if you don't keep your part of the deal.
In the IGN's article about Prey 2 that whole verbal promise about giving the devs more time seems to be made long after the development had begun and possibly after Bethesda started to reject milestones. Even if the devs would have called the bluff early they were already obligated to finish the game. Surely they could have negotiated better terms before signing in the first place? I would not be surprised if the terms presented to them were an industry standard that usually works just fine if the parties involved are acting on good faith. Which is a expectation that Bethesda/Zenimax apparently exploits as much as they can within the letter of the law.

avatar
HypersomniacLive: And coming back to the Interplay - Bethesda disaster, I still can't fathom how Herve Caen thought/ believed that they company could deliver on all the requirements (that is taking into account the state Interplay was in and that they had no concrete plan already in place) and signed a contract that basically was "deliver or die" in all aspects and terms. Did he really need top-notch legal counselling to understand the huge risk he took?

Just my 2c.
One more or less serious theory at the NMA forums was that he was actually counting at being able to sue Bethesda/Zenimax for basically acting like he would himself have done. For a while that seemed like this would be his greatest accomplishment ever until it was pointed out that the trial was not to be heard in front of a jury, so any sob stories about a poor little Interplay being unfairly bullied by big and powerful Bethesda were now going to be far less effective.
avatar
JAAHAS: Publishers on the other hand are very skilled at suppressing anyone not willing to commit a professional and financial suicide from telling to the public how badly they were threated. They can pressure gaming "journalists" to not give their games bad reviews, now imagine what they can do to someone who they can actually sue for leaking "vital business information"?
They can pressure the gaming journalists because they are often a source of their income, advertising revenue. The gaming media and publishers are in bed together.
low rated
contract shit blah blah blah. Those guys of Bethesda are just morons. we gamers NEED RETRIBUTION for such an egoistical and shameful act.

ALL BETHESDA STAFF NEED SOME SERIOUS CORPORAL PUNISHMENT FOR TRUE JUSTICE.

i'll just beat the shit out of any man i learn who works for them.
Everyone commenting on developer - publisher relations needs to read the following:

The Ties That Divide

Contract Deal Points

Royal tease

G.O.D.'S Ten Developer Commandments