me either

you're all killing me

so.

slowly.

.

which means I finished the current

vote count / votecount / vote-count

Nathaniel (Nathan) Smith ........ -- 0 --
Sean O'Donnell (Sean-O!) ....... -- 2 -- Fergus (Nachomamma8), Marie (bler144),
Laura Jennings ......................... -- 5 -- William (QuadrAlien), Adam (RWarehall), Claire (cristigale), Eric (yogsloth), Emma (Ixamyakxim),
Emma Hess ............................... -- 0 --
Adam Johnson .......................... -- 1 -- Laura (babark),
William (Bill) O'Brian ................ -- 0 --
Craig Adams ............................. -- 0 --
Daniel (Dan) Evans .................. -- 0 --
Claire Dwyer .............................. -- 0 --
Eric Barton ................................. -- 1 -- Craig (Bookwyrm627),
Fergus (Fergie) Perkins .......... -- 0 --
Sarah Matthews ........................ -- 0 --
Emily Barton .............................. -- 0 --
Marie Thomson ........................ -- 0 --
Justin Dawson ......................... -- 2 -- Dan (Brasas), Sean (Lifthrasil),

not wanting to kill anyone ....... -- 4 -- Sarah (TammyTown), Nathan (Dessimu), Justin (Stanari), Emily (trentonlf),

***********************************************************************
if your vote is not where you want it, say so, and I'll correct the votecount

Can we have a deadline?

Force us useless gerbils to spin the wheel?

I tried to keep up while at the music festival but that didn't happen. I've done the very briefest of skims and I'll catch up properly when I've finished the real life stuff I'm behind on. I'm hoping for today but that might be tomorrow.

I did see Jim's departure and welp that saves me from making an embarrassing push. Not too concerned with whodunit right this minute but it does help me with my reads somewhat I suppose. I think I'm trying to town read someone I shouldn't be though.

Anyway I think that barback, lift and dessimu almost has to have at least one scum in it. If not something is very odd with this game. I'll come back to this later though.

I'm back! Interview went pretty well. I'd be pretty surprised if I didn't move on to the next round (next week probably). A couple of the answers from them on questions I asked were a slight bummer, but nothing deal-breaking.

Man, blocking the game out for 20ish hours was super nice. Kinda reminds me how peaceful it is to not play and just heckle/observe.

Skimming the last 20ish posts looks like "stuff happened" so I'll read through and catch up on the fun. Think I might also respond to RW's post right before I skipped out last night. Kinda trolled him on one point but skipped over the core points, I think.

Will re-read, anyway. Called in sick for the afternoon, so should be around enough to get caught up.

Before reading to catch up:

1) Neutral ain't so bad. Bit crowded in there, though.

Maybe I have info you don't. Maybe I'm scum. Maybe I'm seeing things on the table that are pretty apparent that you're missing. Maybe I'm just an idiot. 3 of those 4 have me as town though, right? Guess I could be a scum idiot, but that modifier is unnecessary.

2) I still don't think that's what I'm doing. At this point my major sorting function is "who's at least out there at least making an effort to look like they're trying to solve, and who isn't." Admittedly, as noted, wyrm is still getting town-read despite a bit of WTF on what he's doing. I'm voting Lift because I didn't like his justification for leaving Ix for Stan, and then leaving Stan for yogs.

But otherwise, I'm town-reading you because even though I don't agree with a lot of what you're saying, you're leaving a trail, and at least look like you're making an actual effort.

If there are specific players you think I'm doing that on, by all means, you can ask, but maybe I'm just not showing all my cards? I mean, I'll flash most of my cards (and other stuff) but I keep a few things hidden - just to be alluring.

Have I thrown shade at people just for voting Stan? Maybe, though it wasn't my intent, which was really to call on whatever credibility I do have to say she shouldn't be on the table D1. People (even town) can, and in my experience will, disagree with me. And I could possibly be wrong.

3) I would be a total idiot to even try to play scum controller. After that first game where I was cop (lynched you after a peek, lynched CSP on a fuckup fight with trent, lynched flub on a peek) I can't think of too many wagons I've actually pushed through. Demon lift and scum Quad (who I'd peeked) in the dungeon game also as cop. Lift as town in the academy game - and even in that one I was teasing the shit out of being cop. Did lynch town, alas, but on the bright side I took heat off the actual town cop.

In the all-scum game I was like 1 for 10 (pushed adalia over Leonard successfully, failed yogs twice, failed ix repeatedly...).

TLDR, to my recollection I've really only had luck leading wagons when I was cop and had the whole 'argument from authority' thing on my side. Would you say I was one of the most persuasive people in the room? I'm guessing you would not.

I'm also never going to be deep wolf, fwiw, so even if I were this scum mastermind you suggest, I could probably only stretch it 1-2 days before it blew up in my face.

My perception is tend to not actually follow me (when not cop) onto wagons. But to the extent I have any credibility, again, I'd say lynching Stan D1 is a mistake.


Anyway, you're mis-reading my whole point there anyway. I invited people to look at the vote count carefully (data on the table) and judge from themselves the implication of what it all (particularly the lack of counter-wagon) meant if scum!babark AND town!babark. And how do you, as the viewer of the data, think that speaks to how we proceed?

So it was a thought-exercise (in what I self-described as a rant) on what follows if babark is scum, which is wholly unproven, which I noted. If he flipped town then the whole scenario I suggested is nonsense.

Seems a bit like, kinda what I did to you before, you're getting hung up on the pieces you don't like and not looking at the big picture.

You didn't like what I did with the data, fine, but did not embrace the opportunity to look at the data and offer your own analysis, which was the core point of that whole exchange.

Stan did, fwiw

If I was breadcrumbing I had a reason; if I wasn't I had a reason, if I wasn't and just wanted to look like I was, then I'm probably trolling you. Pick one.

I do agree with your larger point - you may not like it, but what I'm doing mostly is making a "D1 town" list for purposes of sorting who's in play for me currently and who's not. Everything gets reassessed when there's an actual flip.

So I just said "I think you're town" in my prior post but that's truly just a measure from now til Nightfall. Add 1-2 flips and everything (well, okay, probably not everything -too lazy for that) goes back in the hopper.

Admittedly, I could probably use clearer nomenclature, but I'm writing a lot, fast and furious. And not doing much proof-reading or double-checking.

Which is actually my best claim for being town - if I were scum I'd almost certainly be anal about who I attribute things to and what I say. Actual paranoia vs. flavor paranoia. /shrug


I wasn't around for that one, but the prospect was etched into my brain my first game when we spent day 2 of Gallows pissing around and then policy lynched Leonard for being town...matrix? Whatever the hell he was. Without checking I'd imagine scum (RW/yogs/flub) played a role in making that happen but there was little/no pushback.

I found that bit odd as well. He's more convinced babark is scum than I am by far, it seems, and yet he's upset that I'm looking at the logical follow-through of what it means if that's true?



I don't even know anymore! (*sobs*)

Really, I don't care much that people don't see what I perceive her as doing. She may not "say" a lot, but she leaves a pretty clear record of what she reacts to and what pings her interest.

And yeah, it's possible you just ping my scumdar in perpetuity.

Not that I claim saintly status, the core issue is that I still struggle with your basis for leaving Ix to vote stan on the theory they were buddies, without providing a good case for how that was possible.

Was it any deeper than her (quite openly) pushing against Ix's wagon? While not alignment-conclusive, don't you think someone who just played in the champs series (and wasn't named Tmofer) and has yogs respect enough to get invited to play here, is a more subtle wolf than just coming out with a bare-naked "No, not my teammate!" defense?

If Ix is mafia, fwiw, you're still far and away my #1 choice for his teammate.

Don't really get your jump from Stan to yogs either, but honestly I kinda read you jumping back as townie so WTFIDK.

You do recall Brasas self-confessed to being a Resistance pro, btw? While there are some specific quirks, the basic contortions are quite similar.

I didn't see what you saw, but be pretty wary of assuming "2nd mafia game" translates to unpolished. My working assumption is that Brasas' game is way more polished than mine.

And probably also not bound by the weird conventions/habits we've built up on the gog playerbase.

Make a case. I like you for town, but not enough to do the work for you. ;)

I'll be quite clear that I have not copped/peeked/otherwise investigated Stan. If I claim I have later, I'm lying. So I cannot prove her to be town, but if my life came down to correctly picking one other player as town (or more cheerfully win a million bucks or something), that's absolutely where I'm landing right now.

If we're not resolving babark, yeah. I tend to agree that yogs has to at least be the next conversation.

Meh. Evasiveness =/= lying, esp. on D1 and on a role claim. Ix has been evasive, Wyrm has been evasive, and so have I. Ideally D1 play you get people on record and we've all put enough out there it can be judged again when more details emerge to corroborate or not.

I think I've said enough that town PRs are probably going to stay away, and then yogs pretty much trumpeted it from the rooftops in amusing fashion, so...y'know. HEY MAFIA - I WON'T HAVE OTHER PROTECTION TONIGHT!

So come look for me in the barn, and just be careful not to trip over that tripwire - might knock a lantern down on that hay pile and die in a fiery conflagration or something.

Is that redundant?


What does a Maine mafia want, anyway? At this point in history even lobster wasn't worth anything.

it is now:

SUNDOWN -

ANY and ALL posts made during this stage must contain at least one argument or statement either:

a.) defending themselves and/or another player, or,
b.) explaining why a player(s) / character(s) is a valid lynch choice.

BE SURE TO FOLLOW THESE RULES - any questions or concerns, contact me privately

October 26, 1696 -

A villager stands and declares "Okay everyone, we either decide what to do or I'm setting off for Nashua tomorrow and telling everyone that it is safe to return. It seems a portion of you don't really want to kill anyone anyway, so..."

"Hold right there!" Another villager interjects. "Just because someone isn't voting to kill someone doesn't mean they don't want to kill someone."

"Well then, they need to tell us who they suspect is most likely to be involved in Julie's death and place their vote already. Let's get this terrible deed done or not do at at all."

They all agree that:

No one may speak unless they're making a case for someone or defending someone, and that of course can be themselves. You may also simply change your vote if you desire.

This is how the villagers currently stand:

5 think it best to kill Laura Jennings (babark) - William (QuadrAlien), Adam (RWarehall), Claire (cristigale), Eric (yogsloth), Emma (Ixamyakxim),

4 think it best to not kill anyone - Sarah (TammyTown), Nathan (Dessimu), Justin (Stanari), Emily (trentonlf),

2 think it best to kill Sean O'Donnell (Lifthrasil) - Fergus (Nachomamma8), Marie (bler144),

2 think it best to kill Justin Dawson (Stanari) - Dan (Brasas), Sean (Lifthrasil),

1 thinks it best to kill Adam Johnson (RWarehall) - Laura (babark),

1 thinks it best to kill Eric Barton (yogsloth) - Craig (Bookwyrm627),

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if this is not where you want your vote to be, say so, and I'll correct the vote count

Technical matters: I am not scum and you shouldn't vote me! This is my defense.

Thank heavens for major loopholes!

I'd written this post and tried to post it 15 min ago but it bugged out (hung long enough for me to ctrl-A/ctrl-C it), so I'm posting it anyway with the above statement putting me into compliance.

1) This is the first thing you've said that feels off to me. Surely you didn't tease Mason out there assuming it would be 100% resolved N1. You don't have to answer that, but with this post you've spun the "kill me" WIFOM back to "strategically don't kill me."

Don't answer that, and maybe you're intentionally pouring WIFOM on the fire, but it's...curious given your otherwise careful ambiguity.

2) I could swear like 10 posts ago you said letting a wild neutral run amok and punting til late game was dangerous. Who was that master scum who extorted poor Arthur Dent into helping evil win, anyway?

Besides, even if yogs is sk (and assuming he's not compulsive) you've handed him a road map that basically just says "Don't kill anyone for a few nights" haven't you? Though he's certainly capable of working that out himself if he's SK, just as he did as solo-scum.

Hmmm...that is a compelling case. I imagine people will rush to fall in behind that!

I'm not sure I follow the analysis.

Clearly in this world town and scum are both not pushing this wagon to finish, but you think it more likely he's town and scum are just twiddling their thumbs for town to finish it moreso than that he's mafia and scum don't want to finish it or might look suspicious busing on a weak vote?


I also find babark's lack of claim at L-1 curious.
Will go back and look for what yogs is pointing at after dinner.

Ok, reflected a bit. In my view, here are the cases I'm weighing:

The case for Dess is he's lurking and my gut says so. Also Stan now says so. Barring someone finding something major, however, this wagon looks like a POS in the 75% of the worlds in which he's town.

The case for lynching Lift (imo) is that his votes are odd. He votes Ix for doing the worst thing ever, then jumps to Stan because Stan-Ix might be buddies somehow and her lack of explanation for her votes is close to but not quite the worst thing ever, then votes yogsloth because of that thing he's been doing allllll day long which wasn't notable before but now is with Stan's wagon mostly stalled, then moves back to Stan for something. Does that about cover it?

However, this is also pretty much a Happy Days Fire Drill wagon as it was never above L-6 previously. If Lift is town in all this, his flip gives zilch.

The case for lynching yogs is that he's been trying really hard to not town all Day, and then when pressed for why he shouldn't be voted says "I have been doing stuff - look at all Drealmer's flavor postings!" Which I did. Of the times his name comes up, it's like 50% vote count, 25% in that one long post about getting baked, and 25% just here and there. Other than getting baked for town (maybe his PR is weed dealer?) I have no idea what he's talking about.

The case for babark (imo) is basically that he's at least the best "wagon." I don't put his odds at being scum much above the normal 25%, but I think we get a lot if he is. RW looks strong town, Quad/Stan/trent to varying degrees a bit as well.

I don't really think much of his game state post, as it's mostly focused on trivia and an explanation of why he's focused on defending himself. So that's pretty much null.

At this point the most curious thing is the non-claim in conjunction with his last post. Setting up the fight with RW sounds townie (though I don't buy the town!babark = scum!RW - possible but certainly not guaranteed), but why do that and also not claim? That part bugs me. He implies he thinks he's doomed anyway. And RW looks hella townie if scum!babs flips. So scum!him has nothing to lose, and a nice emotional appeal to play.

If he claims vanilla he knows he's probably toast; if he claims PR and lives, he's got a claim to be held against him later. This just reads as emotional/tone appeal to me, but as an actual play, the lack of claim makes me really doubt its legitimacy.

Personally, I think babs has to go.

@trent - as for the people voting for convenience thing, I'm not sure that speaks to babs' alignment. The day has dragged forever, and it's a way to salvage at least a smidge of towncred for busing him. And certainly it could also be scum or lazy town slowly filtering on a town wagon.

Also, just happened to be typing this with his last post (#1118) and noted he hasn't posted in 6 hours, but his light was on for at least 5-10 minutes just now. I know cristi leaves hers on and wanders, and maybe he was elsewhere on the forums, but IDK.

I think he's played the emotional card and hoping people just move on.

I'll concede we don't learn much if he does flip town, but seriously, is there anybody we Fire Drill now that we learn anything from if they flip town?

Unvote Sean
Vote Laura

The only way any towncred could be given for busing him is if he flips scum, so how would anyone on jumping on his wagon know to bus him unless they knew his alignment? Unless you meant something else by that statement.

I still see babark as a possible lynch candidate because I still am not convinced docbear did not make a slip, but I still don't like people just jumping on the wagon because it's "convenient". If babark flips town then any scum who jumped on to finish him off can get away with it since it's a lynch to just end the day and not because he is acting scummy, and people are saying it's ok to get on the wagon since the day has drug on for too long. I don't like it, but I don't know if at this point we have any other alternative.

As for yogs I can't figure out what the hell he is talking about. Between yogs, bookwyrm, and bler all hinting at roles and hidden objectives there's either a lot going on that I am not clued into or scum is messing with town in a brazen manner.

Vote babark

Re-read Dess and I'm going to defend him against the accusations of that miscreant ahead of me. Hear that, I'm defending Dess!

Much of it was amusing, actually. Well done.

I think my suspicion of Dess goes up if babs flips mafia, and...(gut reaction) down if not. Either way I think he's someone to be addressed later and not in a serious D1 lynch pool.

He had her "leaning more town than scum but neutral" on the basis of :

"I feel like as mafia, she would give lead to buddies and follow them. Now she plays her own game."

I'm not sure if that's a buddy giving town cred and reassurance to a teammate, or just a weird statement. It's probably still the single-most pinging thing about Dess.

How do you know if she's playing her own game if you don't know who her teammates are?

She voted Quad in 416 and was the only vote on him at that point, but quite a few people (me, Brasas, Nacho, others?) had thrown shade on Quad, and Wyrm had voted him early. Though I think wyrm has voted everyone at this point. But her rationale for voting him was "gut and she wants to trust her gut this game."

Huh, in retrospect that probably wasn't the best defense.

Clearly I hadn't refreshed. The reference to the miscreant in front of me was not to trent but instead that bler fellow. Odd duck, that one.

I'm going to defend trent, here. We definitely shouldn't lynch trent today because of lots of things.

In the passage you quoted of mine, the first half of the sentence was scum!babs (thus busing) and the second half was town!babs. I'd thought the implication clear since it was set up as contrast, but apparently not. Probably should've done a single sentence with a semi-colon. Then it would have been totally clear to everyone familiar with the ins and outs of Strunk's Elements of Style, Fiftieth Anniversary Edition.

Going back to the Dess quote it can be read three ways:

Dess is scum and doc/babs is town: Dess presumes doc is town and thus not following teammates
Dess is scum and doc/babs is scum: Dess slips and acknowledges she's not following teammates
Dess is town and just pulling weird stuff out of his posterior.

I guess I just don't see how town!Dess, especially with his lower than average activity level (which I am willing to accept is RL-caused) has ruled out that doc isn't following someone's lead, even if he thinks that's her tell.

Preferred order:
1) babark
2) dess

Lol!

I've never been known for case-building. I actually can't figure out why I was scumreading Dess earlier - there was something tonal that pinged me but it must have been something that happened while I was keeping up on mobile and so I lost it.

At any rate I have finally come around to a tentative townread on babark. Maybe he was coached but the attitude seems correct, and votehop here seems unintuitive for scum.