Posted November 17, 2017
richlind33
bong hits for beelzebub
richlind33 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2016
From United States
fishbaits
7/4/2012 - 9/5/2017
fishbaits Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2012
From Ukraine
Posted November 17, 2017
richlind33: When you have "investors" with insane expectations, pubs/devs have to be "creative", right? o.O
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/314/853/a3d.gifdrmike
Why yes, I am a Major General
drmike Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2012
From United States
Posted November 17, 2017
It's mentioned in another thread but Belgium is looking into EA's Battlefield:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/16/technology/battlefront-ii-star-wars-game-ea-costs/index.html
http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/16/technology/battlefront-ii-star-wars-game-ea-costs/index.html
fishbaits
7/4/2012 - 9/5/2017
fishbaits Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2012
From Ukraine
Posted November 22, 2017
The minister of Justice wants to ban in-game purchases, if you don't know exactly what it will contain. "Combining gambling and gaming, especially at a young age, is dangerous for the mental health of the child.
The commotion started last week with the new game Star Wars: Battlefront in the the game you could buy so called "loot boxes", virtual boxes which could contain advantages for the game. You don't know however what it contains beforehand.
"The combination of money and addiction is gambling", ruled the gambling committee. VTM News brought the news and a few days later EA withdrew the function from the game, partially because Disney complained, which has the rights to the Star Wars merchandise.
Geens now wants to prevent that these kinds of funtions will be in any games going forward. "But that takes time, because we have to go to Europe. We will definitely try to ban it."
https://nieuws.vtm.be/vtm-nieuws/binnenland/geens-wil-gokken-games-verbieden
http://www.pcgamer.com/belgium-says-loot-boxes-are-gambling-wants-them-banned-in-europe/
The commotion started last week with the new game Star Wars: Battlefront in the the game you could buy so called "loot boxes", virtual boxes which could contain advantages for the game. You don't know however what it contains beforehand.
"The combination of money and addiction is gambling", ruled the gambling committee. VTM News brought the news and a few days later EA withdrew the function from the game, partially because Disney complained, which has the rights to the Star Wars merchandise.
Geens now wants to prevent that these kinds of funtions will be in any games going forward. "But that takes time, because we have to go to Europe. We will definitely try to ban it."
https://nieuws.vtm.be/vtm-nieuws/binnenland/geens-wil-gokken-games-verbieden
http://www.pcgamer.com/belgium-says-loot-boxes-are-gambling-wants-them-banned-in-europe/
johnnygoging
I was told there would always be a bigger fish
johnnygoging Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jun 2013
From Canada
Posted November 22, 2017
it's borderline narcotics business model. it's exploitative, it's all caveat emptor stuff. and it goes beyond that in fact because it pollutes the games which have to get altered to receive it. it's fucking weird, it creates horrible situations for some people playing the games, and I think personally there are weird parallels with the pharmaceutical industry specifically with antibiotics that's just weird and concerning.
Pheace
New User
Pheace Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jul 2010
From Netherlands
Posted November 22, 2017
The director of the Dutch Gambling commission has a slightly different take on it apparently.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/7ei9jn/head_of_dutch_gambling_commission_appears_on/
Summary from first post:
The director of the gambling committee seems pretty confident and knowledgeable. What she's saying is this:
Lootboxes and gambling elements are fine. However, as soon as it becomes real gambling, they are worried and will involve themselves in regulating it.
The crucial factor is the ability to "win" a prize that holds value outside of the game. While this seems to be a cut and dry case for say CSGO skins, this is more a legal definition issue than anything else.
They will investigate, and for now advise parents to keep an eye on the games their children play, make agreements on time and money spending, keep your credit card info to yourself, and make sure your kids are not spending too much in these games.
Besides that, feeling rewarded and wanting to continue playing is something I'm pretty sure we all want from our games. (minus the spending), though I agree the least exploitative the monetary scheme around that is the better. But if you look at MMO's for instance, I was happy to pay monthly for that , because it kept me entertained, and it kept me hooked for so long, it was simply worth putting more money into. (many people would call MMO's addictive or close to it)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/7ei9jn/head_of_dutch_gambling_commission_appears_on/
Summary from first post:
The director of the gambling committee seems pretty confident and knowledgeable. What she's saying is this:
Lootboxes and gambling elements are fine. However, as soon as it becomes real gambling, they are worried and will involve themselves in regulating it.
The crucial factor is the ability to "win" a prize that holds value outside of the game. While this seems to be a cut and dry case for say CSGO skins, this is more a legal definition issue than anything else.
They will investigate, and for now advise parents to keep an eye on the games their children play, make agreements on time and money spending, keep your credit card info to yourself, and make sure your kids are not spending too much in these games.
johnnygoging: it's borderline narcotics business model. it's exploitative, it's all caveat emptor stuff. and it goes beyond that in fact because it pollutes the games which have to get altered to receive it. it's fucking weird, it creates horrible situations for some people playing the games, and I think personally there are weird parallels with the pharmaceutical industry specifically with antibiotics that's just weird and concerning.
While I get your point, you do realize this has been part of gaming since pretty much back in the day of arcades? Those rewarding sounds and flashing lights and highscores etc were all intended to keep you playing (spending). The advent of home gaming has diminished that sort of spending and MT's are bringing it back, but realistically this has been there since the dawn of gaming. Besides that, feeling rewarded and wanting to continue playing is something I'm pretty sure we all want from our games. (minus the spending), though I agree the least exploitative the monetary scheme around that is the better. But if you look at MMO's for instance, I was happy to pay monthly for that , because it kept me entertained, and it kept me hooked for so long, it was simply worth putting more money into. (many people would call MMO's addictive or close to it)
Post edited November 22, 2017 by Pheace
Starmaker
go Clarice!
Starmaker Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2010
From Russian Federation
Posted November 22, 2017
1. "This shitty practice has existed for a long time" is a bad argument in defense of the practice.
2. When you're paying for a (proper) MMORPG subscription, you know what you're buying: a set amount of game time. Sure, the experience may vary, but that's the case with all media that's monetized with upfront payments. Regular games and movies can also suck.
(Then again, maybe they meant "if box content is not redeemable for real money, you're in the clear FOR NOW according to current law". I can't Dutch.)
I'd also like it a lot if we as a community moved away from "addictive" as a colloquial descriptor of nice things in general. Nice things are things people like to partake of, it's, like, in the definition. Addiction on the other hand makes people feel miserable but return to the game over and over. Here's a rare example of an addictive but not evil game. (Remarkably, no content in this game is paid-only, the dev has an unlimited refund policy, and the sequel will now be a regular paid game without microtransactions.)
Anyway, the matter is not about addiction, it's about gambling. IMO gambling should cover most if not all situations in games when a repeatable monetary transaction offers a rare reward regardless of whether the reward can be liquified or not. E.g. there's a Russian lottery where the top prize is an apartment. Would it be less of a lottery if the T&C said you couldn't sell it if you won?
2. When you're paying for a (proper) MMORPG subscription, you know what you're buying: a set amount of game time. Sure, the experience may vary, but that's the case with all media that's monetized with upfront payments. Regular games and movies can also suck.
Lootboxes and gambling elements are fine. However, as soon as it becomes real gambling, they are worried and will involve themselves in regulating it.
The crucial factor is the ability to "win" a prize that holds value outside of the game. While this seems to be a cut and dry case for say CSGO skins, this is more a legal definition issue than anything else.
As a commentary on existing laws, this is unfortunate but ok. As a driving principle, it's Kantian bullshit. Many states have laws against Ponzi schemes. Yet, it turns out the chance to lose money in a Ponzi scheme (as a layperson, not a scammer) is 90%, while the chance to lose money in an MLM pyramid is 99% (the distinguishing feature of the latter is they're selling goods and are allegedly sustainable). The commission not regulating loot boxes is not "fine", it's an oversight. The crucial factor is the ability to "win" a prize that holds value outside of the game. While this seems to be a cut and dry case for say CSGO skins, this is more a legal definition issue than anything else.
(Then again, maybe they meant "if box content is not redeemable for real money, you're in the clear FOR NOW according to current law". I can't Dutch.)
I'd also like it a lot if we as a community moved away from "addictive" as a colloquial descriptor of nice things in general. Nice things are things people like to partake of, it's, like, in the definition. Addiction on the other hand makes people feel miserable but return to the game over and over. Here's a rare example of an addictive but not evil game. (Remarkably, no content in this game is paid-only, the dev has an unlimited refund policy, and the sequel will now be a regular paid game without microtransactions.)
Anyway, the matter is not about addiction, it's about gambling. IMO gambling should cover most if not all situations in games when a repeatable monetary transaction offers a rare reward regardless of whether the reward can be liquified or not. E.g. there's a Russian lottery where the top prize is an apartment. Would it be less of a lottery if the T&C said you couldn't sell it if you won?
Pheace
New User
Pheace Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jul 2010
From Netherlands
Posted November 22, 2017
Starmaker: Anyway, the matter is not about addiction, it's about gambling. IMO gambling should cover most if not all situations in games when a repeatable monetary transaction offers a rare reward regardless of whether the reward can be liquified or not. E.g. there's a Russian lottery where the top prize is an apartment. Would it be less of a lottery if the T&C said you couldn't sell it if you won?
I don't disagree with you but just to devil's advocate here a little. What if there's still an ingame way get random rare rewards, say lootbox buyable with ingame currency that gives random + (highly desirable) rare rewards. No way to buy them directly. However there's plenty of microtransaction means to either buy ingame currency directly, or boosters for currency gains, or gear etc to help you get currency faster.
Is that acceptable? Where would it stand vs gambling laws?
Post edited November 22, 2017 by Pheace
Starmaker
go Clarice!
Starmaker Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2010
From Russian Federation
Posted November 22, 2017
Pheace: I don't disagree with you but just to devil's advocate here a little.
What if there's still an ingame way get random rare rewards, say lootbox buyable with ingame currency that gives random + (highly desirable) rare rewards. No way to buy them directly. However there's plenty of microtransaction means to either buy ingame currency directly, or boosters for currency gains, or gear etc to help you get currency faster.
Is that acceptable? Where would it stand vs gambling laws?
I don't know where it would stand vs gambling laws, but under my definition, any repeatable real money -> rare reward conversion whose per time period spending cap is huge compared to regular market prices or nonexistent would be gambling, regardless of how many steps it takes or how many parties it involves. What if there's still an ingame way get random rare rewards, say lootbox buyable with ingame currency that gives random + (highly desirable) rare rewards. No way to buy them directly. However there's plenty of microtransaction means to either buy ingame currency directly, or boosters for currency gains, or gear etc to help you get currency faster.
Is that acceptable? Where would it stand vs gambling laws?
E.g.
- buying in-game currency with real money at a set exchange rate is not gambling, because the rate is set;
- having a "reasonably-priced" premium subscription that rewards a random account-bound rare item per month is not gambling, because it's "reasonably" hardcapped;
- selling a character such as Darth Vader for an exorbitant sum and have him be otherwise available through an extremely unfun ~yearlong grinding process (win a match, get a box, open for a random reward) is not gambling, because the random path and the real money path are alternatives;
- betting items bought for real money on various outcomes at an external site *is* gambling.
There's also a separate problem of selling in-game resources -- as in, numbers, not content someone had to take the time out of their day to create -- for real money in singleplayer games. Singleplayer games should be moddable as a civil right. Sure, "seamless drop-in, drop-out, so no modding for you" is a blatant loophole - okay, fine, don't allow mods in competitive multiplayer. But buying additional pylons or whatever for private gaming shouldn't be a thing.
Trilarion
New User
Trilarion Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jul 2010
From Germany
Posted November 22, 2017
"Please note: No content in the game is gated by Gold. All content can be acquired naturally through normal gameplay."
Maybe they should define normal gameplay?
Anyway, it's good to know. It shows how micro-transactions spoil the fun of a game. If you pay to win, where is the challenge?
Pay to play is the only thing that works.
Maybe they should define normal gameplay?
Anyway, it's good to know. It shows how micro-transactions spoil the fun of a game. If you pay to win, where is the challenge?
Pay to play is the only thing that works.
richlind33
bong hits for beelzebub
richlind33 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2016
From United States
Posted November 22, 2017
Addictiveness is precisely why gambling is an extremely lucrative industry, and if this were not the case there would be little or no cause for concern.
.
.
Trilarion: "Please note: No content in the game is gated by Gold. All content can be acquired naturally through normal gameplay."
Maybe they should define normal gameplay?
Anyway, it's good to know. It shows how micro-transactions spoil the fun of a game. If you pay to win, where is the challenge?
Pay to play is the only thing that works.
The challenge lies in dealing with the consequences of irrational spending.Maybe they should define normal gameplay?
Anyway, it's good to know. It shows how micro-transactions spoil the fun of a game. If you pay to win, where is the challenge?
Pay to play is the only thing that works.
Post edited November 22, 2017 by richlind33
Starmaker
go Clarice!
Starmaker Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2010
From Russian Federation
Posted November 22, 2017
I mean, it's pointless and counterproductive to charge one agency with regulating all things that can potentially ruin a person's life. Addiction is a sprawling medical issue, and objects of addiction are all over the place. Gambling is one of them, a specific type of commercial service that can be targeted by financial regulators.
richlind33
bong hits for beelzebub
richlind33 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2016
From United States
Posted November 22, 2017
richlind33: Addictiveness is precisely why gambling is an extremely lucrative industry, and if this were not the case there would be little or no cause for concern.
Starmaker: I mean, it's pointless and counterproductive to charge one agency with regulating all things that can potentially ruin a person's life. Addiction is a sprawling medical issue, and objects of addiction are all over the place. Gambling is one of them, a specific type of commercial service that can be targeted by financial regulators. Legislation/regulation simply cannot make up for an absence of ethics, for very obvious reasons.
Post edited November 22, 2017 by richlind33
johnnygoging
I was told there would always be a bigger fish
johnnygoging Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jun 2013
From Canada
Trilarion
New User
Trilarion Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jul 2010
From Germany