Vote Count

RWarehall 2 - yogsloth, agent
Lift 1 - Pooka
yogs 1 - RWarehall
SPF 1 - trent
Micro 1 - Lift
agent 1 - Micro

Everyone else - 0
Not voting - everyone else

14 players remaining - it takes 8 to lynch.

I realize now that posts that sum up interactions and scumminess like #165 are a great tool to separate fluff from substance. I will try to post something like that later today with my own thoughts.

Sad to see Sanscript go, but let's hope he can play with us some other time.

Welcome Micro. Nice to see you join us. Now please answer the following questions:
- What house are you from?
- Do you know the password to Slytherin's dorms?
- Do you want to see Voldemort's return?
- Who are you thinking your mates should kill once the day is over?
- And now for an actually serious question, what do you think of the current information we have? Who strikes you as suspicious and why?

This. :)

Also not Micro, but thought it'd be fun to answer these:

Nope, but I found out the password to the female student's showers....it'll cost ya 500 golden galleons, though. o.0 :D

I would, but only so there's something to do....most of the school years(in the books) were somewhat less interesting without something/someone to fight against.

Also ladies like a man who fights evil dark wizards. *sunglasses yahhhhh! meme*

Not kill, but maybe beat up Neville Longbottom for being a bit of a ponce.

I myself suspect either Rwarehall or Lift for the LAL stance thing, and possibly one of either Agent or Yog(I think one of the might be scum hiding among the joke posts).

Hope all is well with you, Sanscript. Next time!

Welcome, Microfish-1!

More relevant that those early, joking (or half-joking) claims themselves, are the reactions towards them, and then the reactions to those reactions. Who was jumping on whom, looking for an easy lynch? Lift on Agent, Trent on Lift, SPF? RWarehall? Was someone using the opportunity to get distanced from someone? And what about those who have been searching in the far sides of the field (Flocke, Micro...)?

Is all this an attempt to mislead the search effort, attempting to distract us from the most pressing matter (namely, the quest for the Snorting Hat, possibly the work of the great crafter of yore, McGuffin)?

GR, yogs, claiming Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff: NOT holding those claims against them, since such claims would be quite suspicious if they were serious (meaning, if they had been made under duress, as a last resort) and we are still in Day 1. Let us say it is all dancing on the edge of the saber (and ordely retreating, for yogsloth).

=> By the way, trying now GR's suggestion of underlining names, to see how it looks. What do you think of these other possible conventions, to make reading easier (especially when trying to catch up)?

Bold for voting and anything addressed to professor ZFR.
Cursive for spells and arcane terms.
Underlining for names (instead of embolding them)?
=> for lines where there is a message that you want to stress out/be noticed.

But there may be existing conventions already in use (in that case, veterans please advice).

Catch 22... Finally the mystery of the missing rules, solved!!!

#87 Begin GR confusion about Agent and yogs breaking rules.

#93 Long post from Carradice although a lot is still concerned with rules and mechanics.

General discussion about dice and why one should put a vote on its own line.

#103 More hard-line LAL stuff from Lift.

#107 Decent post from yogs. Inclined to agree with him that Lift is likely town. I don't think he'd double down this hard if he was scum.

#108 Paranoia or barrel scraping?

#110 Good post from Pooka. Town glockenspiel.

#124 Much appreciated thoughts from Carradice. Townish xylophone.

#128 Not sure what to make of Lift's sudden loss of anti-Agent energy. Did he give up because he could see it was going to get him lynched if he kept pushing? Are they teammates and he decided that it was enough distancing?
Despite that, I don't think he would have pushed so hard as scum, so I'm tentatively town-reading him for now. I wish he'd replied to the questions I addressed to him. ;(

#130 Wait, so it wasn't a typo for Joe?

Ugh, got to go again. Stupid job.

Damit. Typing on mobile sucks. GOG ate a long post again. On the pc i pre-type in a notebook for that reason, but right now I'm sick in bed.

So only the most important, since we have a replacement

Unvote microfish

I'll reply in detail later, after the painkillers kick in. Yes, I'll reply to you too, SirP.

Get better soon! And yes, it pays off to type in a notebook, even on mobile (with any note taking app that behaves reasonably). Lost a post already in this very thread.

As Frank Gallagher, of Shameless fame would say: enjoy your drugs, man.

What I find particularly ironic is how he fell into a very similar situation you did last game. Where you were either the overzealous scum hunter or scum trying to take advantage of an ill-advised post. Last game, it put you on the brink of lynching day 1. I believe the whole issue is NAI. His talk of Lynch All Liars is Mafia philosophy. My feelings on that topic is similar. If Town routinely plays "games with the truth" how is one supposed to read falsity in actual scum? Where I differ is intent. Agent was not lying to supposedly "gauge reactions", it was clearly a joke and I felt it was fitting for RVS. It's the same sort of "not a lie" voting someone because "they are always" scum is. Not a real reason, but also clearly not a real vote.

I think almost all this discussion over RVS jokes is useless and the evolution into the discussion of Mafia philosophies (and even threatened lynching over playstyles) does nothing to legitimately scum hunt. All it is doing is providing a distraction. The way a bunch of people jumped on Lift, makes it very difficult to read his alignment from this interaction. Both scum and town jumped on in this way will act as a cornered animal and pick fight or flight.

It doesn't mean there is no good info to be had but that info is between the lines and not a real part of either discussion. First, the newer players were able to chime in with opinions and gives me a baseline to start off with. But in terms of actual scum-hunting, only one thing in this distracting conversation is significantly useful. Something I frankly thought was impossible, but I'm nearly 100% certain GameRager is not Scum this game. Ironically, from an honest to goodness Derp Clear, not Agent's post which doesn't fit the definition.

GameRager is not Scum because his confusion over the rules seems totally genuine, and if he actually knew who was and wasn't scum, he's not going to make a post thinking they are cleared by the mod. It doesn't mean he can't be an uninformed malevolent 3rd party role, but he is unlikely to be scum. A good example of an actual Derp Clear, he misunderstood the rules in a way that scum (being informed) would know better.

------

In other news, I'm wondering why everyone is focusing on Agent/Lift regarding it being a lie and not Yogsloth who is clearly lying about the reasons for his vote in post 71 or what a weak excuse it is. And all his random "Town clears" for next to nothing. It's a good scum tactic called "pocketing" if he's scum. You tell a lot of people how good their ideas are and clear them making them feel at ease, when in fact you are the wolf in sheep's clothing. The flip side is I see a lot of people at Mafia Universe throwing town clears around like candy and never reflecting on all the times they get it wrong. It's called confirmation bias. And the only thing stopping me from going all in on "Yogs is scum" is the fear he's picked up this bad habit. But for all the talk about all the useful scum hunting we have going on, what have we actually discovered? Almost all the current votes seem to be either over the distracting RVS joke or perceived lack of analysis over a clear joke that has gotten out of hand.

I have a bunch of catching up to do, so be a little patient with me:

RW is still on top of my poo list for the reasons already discussed. Caeser I’d say is also on it. SPF I feel like I’ve got a little blindspot at the moment – he’s posting plenty but I don’t see much that I’d really say “Yeah that’s town”. Way above the bar for a Day1 lynch, anyway.

Hey fish, welcome in. I’d advise to drop this line of reasoning though… it’s not going to go much of anywhere productive. As I said before, we’re far better off just lynching people that aren’t attempting to solve the game and appear to be coasting, rather than trying to figure out minutiae about the flavor and use that to try and tell us whom to lynch. That’s not going to work.

Yeah, see, this post. Another classic mafia term, for those unfamiliar, is “IIOA” meaning “Information Instead of Analysis”. That’s what this is. Lots of words, not much game-solving. I don’t like it.



Nope, that’s just me using Mafia and Werewolf terms interchangeably. Substitute “wolfy” with “scummy” if you like.

[another SPF IIOA post goes here]

Feel better lift... and wait, were you really voting the no-show? Yes you were.

If you're Town we need you to start being the hero we deserve.

OK, so I made that big post without refreshing and seeing RWarehall’s first *real* post.

Welcome to the game, RW!

Let’s parse this:

OK, this part is still pretty mechanical and doesn’t actually serve to move *this* game forward any.

OK, here’s a first real clear opinion. And I agree with it. It’s not super risky as I think GR has been pretty Townie even without the derpclear, but at least RW is chiming in with something legitimate.

BUT THEN THE WHEELS FALL OFF THE BUS

It’s absolutely bizarre – this assertion that I’m lying about my vote. Here’s the timelie:

RW makes single mechanical post, and nothing else.
yogs votes RW to prod him
RW makes OMGUS vote, and nothing else
yogs explains why vote is now completely real

There are no lies here. What lie, exactly, would I be trying to get away with? What lie, precisely, have I told that is so clever and subtle as to ensnare the entire Town?

And yes, I Town-clear people, and yes, I learned this technique on MU… and it works pretty well. It’s way harder to look at someone and say “YES – THIS IS A SCUM POST!” and far more effective to look at someone and say “This is someone trying to figure out the game. This is someone that does not have all the answers. This is someone that is articulating an idea that scum simply wouldn’t think to say.” And then you don’t lynch that person. Clear enough people, and you win games. Period.

So the total from RW is:

GameRager is Town for a derpclear
yogsloth is scum-but-I’m-hedging-my-bet-there

I think I’m sticking this wagon out, my good people.

Hey Yogs...how about you do something productive instead of directing traffic to specific people at the drop of a hat with little to no real reasoning than trying to justify it after the fact. Look in the mirror at your own "game-solving".

Randomly assigning Town passes and pretending to be Alpha Town when your own analysis is suspect doesn't go very far. How many players did you declare "Town" based off an RVS joke again? Agent is Town for joking? Joe for stating the obvious that Agent might be Town joking or might still be scum shooting for a Town clear?

What I see from you is "Rah Rah, go team, solve the game. Here's a Town point cookie" all based on obvious analysis and questioning participation during the RVS stage...

When you say "he’s posting plenty but I don’t see much that I’d really say “Yeah that’s town”...
That defines your play this game...

And let's not forget your "real vote" based on your time-traveling into the future knowing I was about to "Omgus Yogsloth"...that you took seriously when it's clearly an RVS joke...

The reason I didn't want to get involved in the whole RVS joke debacle is I wanted it to die and let RVS finally be over because nothing that went on is even remotely lynch-worthy. Very reminiscent of last game where the brouhaha over an RVS incident provided perfect cover for me and my partner.

Where's the real analysis? For example, you really think this game is just 3 Mafia and a neutral with 14 players? In a likely role heavy game based on young wizards? Much more likely is a 3rd party killing role so the game doesn't at best reach Lylo on Day 4 with 3 whole days of PR investigations or longer if any of the scum get lynched.

But no, let's go after inactives so we can learn as little as possible from all our mislynches...

I have to agree with yogs in that trying to Town clear people is vital for Town to win. People get way too focused on who’s acting scummy and the mechanics of the game and lose sight of everything else, often to the detriment of Town. Town clearing someone is why I will say I have no desire to vote someone.

Now as far as yogs go, he fools me almost every time he’s scum because he’s that good, but as of this moment I don’t see his play as scum and he’s someone I would not vote for.

As for RW, I’m not sure if he’s who I would vote for today either. Right now my vote is on SPF and I’m comfortable with it being there, but if no one else’s seems to think he’s scum and I’ve got it all wrong my second choice at this moment would probably be Lift as he feels a little off to me right now.

Lift's next-post-after-my-unvote where he has a go at pooka got me concerned.

But the last two games I played with him I thought "there's Lift's scumtell. But maybe he's like that when he's not scum too?" and it turned out he was scum.


I haven't played a game where yogsloth was scum - I think in the last game I played with him (trentonlf's disney to the rescue game) I remember him being less focused early on - I think it took him longer to move out of 'play time' and into 'serious business' time. Am I wrong? Anyone who knows him better - is there significance to that?

Flubbucket was playing the last game too... maybe he's a bad influence...



It went somethink like this:

Trent: vote yogs lololol
Carradice: votus yogs
yogs: you vote me into joint largest wagon, I see I see I see
Trent: unvote yogs no lols.

^ First thing I thought was 'it's a bit rich pressuring a vote by saying it's the joint largest wagon, when the two largest wagons were each two-votes-wide and the other wagon had very little merit to it.
But you didn't react to the pressure, Trent did - I think if he was on a team he'd be concerned about appearing protective.

So that's what I reckon.


I've not read page up yet but I'll post this and be back with you shortly

OK. I'll try to reconstruct what I was writing before.

@SirP: I read your 'when is a lie not a lie' question as rhetoric, since you answer it yourself. But to answer the rest:

A joke is something that I see town!agent making just as well as scum!agent, so it's NAI. Would it be possible that agent accidentally true-claimed? Hardly, it would be strange if he made the same error twice. Not absolutely impossible, but strange. Could he be true-claiming intentionally while wrapping that claim inside a joke? Yes. Maybe he wants to hedge against future reads (flavour, role, whatever) by being able to say: 'Haha... now you're trying to use that joke against me'. - That would be very brazen and not very likely, but possible. Especially since agent can safely assume that the majority won't lynch him over an 'obvious joke'.

So, why my reaction to his 'obvious joke'? Well, part of it is just a pet-peeve. I HATE it when Townies lie. Even if it is meant as a joke. Even a joke will muddy the waters. ... Well, to be more precise: I hate it when townies lie and make stupid jokes when I'm Town myself. In those games where I was scum, I actually secretly loved Townies to do such counter-productive things. As long as the Townies muddy the waters themselves and fight over it, the real scum don't have to do anything but sit back and enjoy the show.
And that's the second part: agent knows that a 'joke' like that will stir up some reaction and that it will be a precedent for an acceptable lie. After all 'a lie is not a lie when it's a joke'. Town-agent would have no vested interest in muddying the waters in this way. Scum-agent would have. He could safely make that 'joke', knowing that the majority won't lynch him over it, and reap the benefits of a blurred line of what is acceptable.

The same is true for yogs, of course. It is more in character with him. He has quite a history of being jokey and useless early in the game, just like flubb, and only starts to actually play for his team later. Whichever that might be. So yogs is someone to keep an eye on just as agent.


Now for the question why I dropped it: it's partially the realization that I am mostly alone with my stance. RW is a believer in LAL too, but the problem is, when the majority of townies think it OK to lie as a joke, LAL starts to work against town. When townies lie, LAL hits them too. So a strict LAL principle should have been agreed pre-game. Just like with Scene's meta play. And that's the second reason for me dropping the thing: the accusation that I was making a 'Scene' was true. Even though that's not a nice thing to realize. I was trying to force my way of playing on everyone, while the majority apparently wants to tolerate lies as a joke.

I still think it would be better for town to follow a strict LAL principle, but I can't enforce it alone. So I back off and look for other scum leads.


Speaking of other leads: beyond the lying/joking stuff, I didn't get any actual scum tells so far. But I got a few town-impressions. I think GR plays and reacts differently from when he was scum. Of course, he could have changed his style since last game. But so far I think he is Town.

Carradice makes the 'leaning town' side as well - by intimidation with long ZFR-ish posts. ;-)

I have SirP on the slightly town side as well, for now.


Great idea. And who are those people? Apart from yourself, of course.


@GR:
There is one thing I still disagree with you very much. If you have a Town-PR and you're asked what role you have, you don't lie. You just refuse to answer (unless it's claim-time anyhow) and lynch the one who asked for fishing. False-claiming is almost never a good idea!


@SirP: interesting observation about trent! I didn't notice that.

@trent: care to answer to SirP?


About house-claiming: I don't see the point in it. Slytherins will just make up one of the other houses so there is nothing to be gained from it. However, since this is a closed setup, there might be a correlation between house and PR. Like 'All Gryffindor are PRs' or 'all investigative roles are Ravenclaw' or something like that. So premature house-claiming might give scum something to work with later on, when possible correlations become visible.
Of course it's not a given that such correlations exist. But it's possible and since we don't have anything to gain from house-claiming, I say let's not do it.