I was just looking at the EOD1 vote count. If you say you didn't have time to react... ok?

Zero chance I'm doing that, in this or any other game. It's chicken poop. Lynch me if you want to, but PM flavor-comparing, when dealing with anything that is alignment-related, is against my religion.

No, you misunderstand.

The silly fluff stuff is fine to share... the stuff that clearly has nothing to do with alignment or mechanics. That's just story and fun, and can't possibly affect the gamestate in any way.

What you guys are fishing for is cheap shit, and I thought GOG mafia was long past this. Anybody remember the time we were like "what's the sixth letter in the fourth line of the Town PM?" That really happened, people.

The problem in this game is that the scum are actually playing really well... which, ya know, isn't a problem, it means it's a good game! I'm not finding anything obvious from anyone, and I guess others are finding it challenging as well, given that I'm the lead wagon and we're not hunting for specific words in PMs to tell us whom to vote for.

But "I live for the queen" Clearly DOES have something to do with alignment.

If the moderator has gone for a specific wording of the role name, not mentioned it publicly anywhere and permitted players to ask what it is, then might that not been a tool the moderator has given to town to help them?
I have done similar things - or dilberately denied town that tool - in games before.

Mechanically we've lost a doctor who never benefited us and it's possible our cop is outed - why not use this mechanical tool to recoup that loss?

lol no it' isn't

I suppose as much as saying "I'm Town" alignment related lol


Because it's not fair to Mafia Team. I'll die on this hill.

Or get imprisoned on this hill as it were.

I mean... ummm... that would be really unusual for a moderator to intentionally hand Town a tool like that

Frequently on MU the mafia team are given the exact PMs to town (less non-mechanics related character flavor) or even provided with exactly-worded fake claims! I just won a scum game there (Elements mash) with a fake claim the moderator gave our team... character, role, flavor, the whole nine yards. Mafia has it tough enough as it is to win without town having an EXTRA tool to mechanically lock the game... especially one that has nothing to do with the core mechanics/sleuthing of the game.

I hope the mafia members are reading these posts and are like "gee, boy howdy, yog is such a nice guy! He could clear himself with this BS but he's not gonna!"

......


On an unrelated note, I wasn't really considering that after the modkill, we're down to 10 players. If there are 3 mafia, that's deep poop.

Really puts my carradice thing in a deep bind. I've just written him off as "not my problem", but that might not be the case... I'm not sure I have the balls to lynch a claimed town cop... my first read of him seemed ok, then I had a mild scum lean for "helpfulness", which is pretty thin...

mafia is hard

I just realized another brainfart of mine:
There was a nightkill. So... either they do have a roleblocker or Carradice isn't a cop. Hmm.

(And all those spelling/typing errors in my posts are starting to annoy me.)


Do you really think, they'd make it this easy? I took it more like "say something"-votes?


Like what?


? But this whole thread is already the record. That's why we're not allowed to edit posts. Oh... you mean you just wanted to let him know you were aware of what it might look like to him?


Yes, that's what you said. And my point was, that this would probably be the first place to look for them then? Like yogsloth seems to be doing in 937. Do you really believe they would make it that easy?
Carradice seems to have understood what I meant. And to have worded it better. I'm not sure how I feel about this.


No. It's just (as stated twice already) that I associate charts with meticulous people and I can't see them waking up one day and thinking "Hey, the game is on, let's post just "meaningless" (no offense meant, it's just, that those "neutral" posts don't contribute in actually playing the game from my point of view) things for a whole day, which will probably annoy the other players, because I'm not actually there to play the game and I therefore might screw myself, maybe even my team over, but it'll be fun." Obviously, I can be very wrong with this assumption.

1. Because they're "overdoing" it?
2. Yeah, I remembered I forgot when I shut the computer off. That's what I get for not doing it right away before chasing down more thoughts and quotes.
Probably for the best though. I overlooked something again.

I'm not going to vote Carradice today. He's off my vote list for today.

Does everyone/most think ZFR and Carradice can't be a Mafia team due to their interactions? If so:
I'd like to know what ZFR flips. If Carradice isn't Mafia, Mafia doesn't know if Carradice is Cop or not either. We'd be doing them a favour lifting that mystery? Which might be a reason for ZFR's insistance to lynch Carradice? Or am I missing something?

Vote ZFR

The general rule is "Town don't lie", if carradice isn't mafia he's certainly telling the truth about being the cop.

Consider - if carradice town, but not cop, then what's the most likely thing to happen when carradice false claims cop? The real cop comes out and says "I counter that claim, carradice is mafia!" Then carradice is probably lynched anyway and the mafia knows where the cop is.

Yes. Town don't lie. Or at least they really shouldn't. So if Carradice is Town, the claim will most likely be true. Scum know that, so for them there is no mystery to lift (still, they would surely be full of glee if we were to lynch our own Cop). Or are you speculating that Carradice is some third party? If so, why?

But your argument of Carradice being normally a quite meticulous player and therefore it being out of character not even to read one's own role is something to think about. But why lie about something like that, even as scum? Just so one can say: 'hey, whatever you see can't be alignment-indicative because I don't even know my own alignment'? Hmm. Not a big advantage for scum when compared to the disadvantage of being focused on due to such a statement. But maybe a gamble that backfired?

The reason carradice gave for not reading the role was so he could do a read without being influenced by the knowledge of it, which is quite in character for a meticulous player, I reckon

I explained myself to Pooka and have official permission to proceed.


I agree it's cheap but I say again - there is no way to unsee it. I already mentioned to Pooka that this shouldn't have happened in the first place but it did and there is no turning back. My personal knowledge pool is tainted by this and from here on out the game will always refract through this prism for me until resolved and there is nothing I can do about it.

I've been scum with you and I've seen the extent you'll go to get out of a sticky situation. You might have evolved and transcended on MU beyond this but I don't know that and I won't count on it, sorry not sorry.

I've also been in a game (can't remember the exact number and concerned players) where a scum player who managed to expose themselves in a similar manner got falsely whitelisted when the mod decided it's a good idea to intervene and practically vouch for them. That game went down the drain because of that.

So yeah, it is unfair to the scum, I absolutely agree and am sorry it had to happen, but it's not my fault and I'm not the one who started it. I'm here to finish it in one way or another.


Not, he's right. There were 2 scenarios in which it would have been unfair and we are currently in one of them. A scum who claims badly because they don't know better or a Townie who claims properly and gets an instant confirmation among the others who share the knowledge. One of these things is happening right now.


Like what has been going on in my last couple of posts, including this one.

To him and everyone else who might have re-read things afterwards.


Right!

i'm here but have no time now, i hope to catch up (pg 19+) tonight

OK, I see what you mean now. Yes, that's why I wrote "WIFOM aside". But in this sitaution I don't see Joe doing it WIFOM to "try and throw suspicion off".

You come very close (10 mins before deadline?) and see a Townie is at L-1. You can
_Do nothing - that Townie is getting lynched.
_Hammer - that Townie is getting lynched, and your name is added to the Townie lyncher wagon.

Note that there was practically no chance of a draw at this stage. The next wagon Micro was 3 votes behind. With 10-15 mins to go.

I just don't see Joe, who just came online making at the last minute making a calculated decision in the heat of the moment "I know, I'll hammer now and add my name to the wagon, so that they say 'surely no scum would do it' and Town-read me. What a nice double-bluff".

However, this wasn't a strong point to begin with - I definitely wasn't going to lock-Town Joe for it - and Joe himself admitted he wasn't fully aware of the count, so it could be scum!Joe trying to make sure a Townie is lynched before dealine.

But, I've been known to be wrong in such type of deductions before - when I think "surely Townie/Scum wouldn't do X" I mean "surely I as Town/Scum wouldn't do X". It's tough to put oneself in someone else's place, so I won't argue the point. As I said, it was a rather weak indication to begin with.

Ah, thank you.


I believe, when PR claims come into play and PRs get revealed due to flips, it is important to know mechanics. To see what is reasonable and possibilities about how one thing might effect another.

I can't answer the Town/Mafia question. To me, everyone can be Mafia just like everyone can be Town. It all depends on if I find the right puzzle pieces or chase after the wrong ones. If that makes any sense.
I wouldn't be surprised, if the whole Mafia team is sitting comfortably in my neutral pile.


My most recent thought are on pages 19 and 20.


Maybe, maybe not. There were so many posts in a short time. Or I'm just a slow typer.


Ugh. Of course. LAL. Well, I guess that means I somewhat think like GR about this. Sometimes a lie might be a good thing. But I see how that might "open the floodgates", if left unpunished.
I thought, maybe we don't have a "real cop" if Carradice is the "fake cop" and no one has counterclaimed. And it doesn't seem to be wise for a cop to come forward Day 1 just to get lynched? But yes, LAL. And noone would know if a recluctantly counterclaiming cop would be real.
A third party crossed my mind, but I haven't come across anything that suggests there are any. But then again, I doubt SK or Neutral would just let that slip.


I thought TownCarradice might say that to get discussion going, which it did. But I forgot LAL. Unless that only covers PRs and whom you might have investigated/blocked/visited/etc.
And for MafiaCarradice: Did it backfire? Carradice is still here, VisitorPR-SPF got exposed and lynched. Wasn't SPF a motion detector (visitor seems similar to that) in the Stanley (?) Hotel? I think I remember that helped Town win?

But why did you post this v before then?
Back then you suggest: Joe hammered so he probably isn't Mafia.
And now you say: I don't see Joe at the last minute making a calculated decision in the heat of the moment.
Brazenly (= fully aware) hammered vs. I never saw him as even noticing it was the hammer.


And I don't understand this part:
What difference does his confirmation make in this context? If he had been aware he was hammering, he (again) couldn't be Mafia?


I will leave my vote there for now.

Yes. Right. Lynch all liars, you know? I might have mentioned that principle once or twice in the past. ;-)

@Flocke: and yes, for me that would also refer to game relevant lies other than claims. If, for example, Carradice's "I haven't read my PM" was a lie, it would be reason for me to put him firmly in the scum camp. But it's difficult to prove such a lie.

No reply from carradice yet, concerning the soft-claim vs. actual claim discrepancy. So I'll wait. I really would like that resolved.

That post contains the reason I wrote it.

On one hand: "If Carradice is Town, I want to look again at Joe. A few things I didn't like about him, but I Town-read him because I thought Carradice is scum."

On the other hand: "would scum hammer anyone they know is Town and is going to be dead anyway in 5 mins?"

I see one thing about Joe that is a scum indication, and another that is a Town indication. I want to look at that again to inspect.
Happens often. Some players do both towny and scummy things as both Town and scum.

I never wrote "probably". Just said it's an indication.

If he knew was fully aware that SPF is at L-1 (and second in line Micro at L-4), then my Town indication reasoning applies: He was adding his name to the wagon, while SPF was lynched anyway.
If he wasn't fully aware of the score, then he could think that SPF and Micro are close together and there is a risk of SPF not being lynched, so he voted SPF to ensure it. ergo my Town indication reasoning no longer applies: He was adding his name to the wagon, but for the reason of lynching SPF, whom he thought may or may not be lynched.