Yes, it is.


"This comes from" - a stock phrase common to arguments is "this from the person who..." which is used to communicate that the opposite person is being hypocritical and it's shocking that they would make the argument.

"very twisted" - the word 'twisted' has negative connotations and the intensifier 'very' implies a calculated attempt to communicate displeasure

"trip and fall" - negative connotations; less so, but 'trip and fall' seems to convey deliberate negativity when 'trip' would function alone.

"In an open setup, even." - the short sentence fragment implies an intensity of delivery. 'even' conveys shock or indignation that expectations have been defined.


^ I understand that you were intending it to be read more neutrally, but with the words and phrasing you have used you have created a paragraph which may naturally be read with a tone of indignant admonishment.

i'm back? i think? reading page 15 to 18 now

And yet dedo is your top pick...

Approximately, yes. I think Yogs thought that he had a convenient target. He admits, that he hasn't really read the rules. And yet he tries to use them as an argument. What's even worse are the other two points, however. They show that he didn't even really read the replys of the person he is targeting. That, again, shows that he wasn't really interested in analyzing Scene, just in making him a convenient target, because Scene always looks scummy enough to be a convenient target.

Yes, I noticed that too. Carradice seems to base his reads at least partially on OMGUS/Defense reaction. And when the threat disappears, he lets up. That is definitely selective perception which can be due to a scummy mindset. Actually his D1 defensiveness still looks scummy.

However, I have to keep in mind that I have a bit of selective perception too. I guess everyone has and it's something I try to work at. I tend to only really notice the players who directly interact with me. I find it very hard to get a read on someone who doesn't discuss with me. For example, I keep meanin to get a better read on Flocke. But they are so little present that that is really hard. The little that is there looks reasonable, I guess. There is nothing that screams 'scum' but nothing that screams 'town' either and without direct interaction my gut feeling doesn't seem to kick in. So all I have is a 'leaning scum due to lurkiness'.

An example for b would be the variant of the Jailer who makes their target untargetable for all other night-actions.
An example of c, beyond Commuter, would be any role with the 'Ascetic' modifier.
However, as ZFR pointed out, this speculation is moot anyhow. Scum most likely wouldn't leave a claimed real Cop alive, unless they have a reliable way to make him useless. They couldn't know whom Carradice would target. So scenarios b and c would be unreliable. So if Carradice is Town, the presence of a scum role-blocker is the only reasonable explanation for leaving the claimed Cop alive. Or in other words, Carradice was either blocked or is scum. (that was one of the reasons to ask, whether there was any clear flavour of having been blocked)

I seriously doubt that. Even if you, as scum, knew the setup to be balanced, you could still try to make that argument to doubt the veracity of a Cop-claim. The Town-players don't know the role setup. So I trust that scum!ZFR would be totally able to make a case out of a powerful role setup, even if he knew the scum powers.
This is one of those 'I wouldn't do that as scum!' sentences that make me very wary. Because I have too often successfully used such an argument myself when I were scum.


Current read update:
ZFR, after clearing up our mutual misunderstanding, is less scummy. However, still leaning scum. Too much focus on role speculation, posts like the last one I quoted and an overall feeling, that his scum hunting is faked. Still in the 'would lynch pool', though at a low priority.

Joe, with making dedo his top pick without good reasons, yes, even admitting that he didn't re-read him as he meant to, joins the 'would lynch' pool.
- incidentally @ZFR: what is your read on Joe now?

trent - no change.
Yogs - no change. Still my top pick.
Carradice - no change, still a reasonable lynch, especially since his flip would enable us to analyze some connections. However, I'd prefer to hit scum and not only go for an 'information gain flip'. And to my feeling, hitting scum is more likely when lynching Yogs than when lynching Carradice.


Note @all: the weekend is coming again and that means I won't be present much until Sunday evening.

Catfight!

I get where Joe si coming from. Carradice's post sounds loaded. There is a possibility it his his usual manner of speech but it does read as he is trying to dismiss Joe's arguments and it rubs me wrong way and it's bascially ad hominem.


You have not posted anything D2. Could you rectify it?

Please, tell me you are at keast using 50 PPP.

Of course. But that's not my point.

You said it yourself: "scum!ZFR would be totally able to make a case out of a powerful role setup, even if he knew the scum powers." (underlining mine)
But Carradice was making a point that I was pointing out the overpowering therefore it indicates I know the scum setup.
I'm not saying "I wouldn't do that as scum". Because I would use all tools at my disposal as scum. I'm pointing out the mistake in the logical conclusion.

Leanin more Town based on his D2. I like his analysis.

Did you read my more in-depth process of elimination explanation? That's my reason.

In other words, me calling Town overpowered would stem from scum!me's deception and not from scum!me's knowledge of scum roles.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.


Fair enough. Are you still going to re-read dedo? Or are you content with your elimination?

Whot

Can you especify?

It seems like you are basically mirroring what others say, going with the flow, drifting through the game while people is distracted.

I wonder what scum will do afterI leave the game? Their lives have ben so comfortable these two weeks.

Right. Well, it does make sense when put that way. Ironically, it can make similar sense in reverse where scum!Lift caught Town!Yog making mistakes and went after them immediately.


Those poor scums (T_T)

not content no. I've not had much time, but I've got an evening in tonight so okay, I'll do that read tonight. Thanks Lift.



Pretty sure this is town carradice.

Well, of course. That's totally something that scum!Lift would do. Scum!Lift would do basically anything that Town!Lift does. At least that's how I tried to play when I was scum.

But do you really think that Town!Yogs would make such a number of errors? One error, the rule thing, I could excuse. But in their entirety this collection of errors/inattentiveness shows something about his motivation: he wasn't trying to find scum. Otherwise he would have read the posts of his target. He was just voting scene to be seen voting. I.e. it's a scum move.

I don't think Yog would do that under normal circumstances regardless of his alignment. That's pretty much the only reason I'm giving it pause. He is too good of a player to make such mistakes if he is playing normally and actively trying to win. I also never saw him so absent from a game before. Sure, I haven't played with him for quite a while, maybe he has changed and makes less effort now. But still, all of this looks like him just not being able to properly keep up with the game and going a bit on autopilot, relying on overall skill and "muscle memory" to carry his weight and getting sub-optimal results out of it. And this can be happening as either alignment so that alone doesn't seem like a sufficient reason to convict him. But I do see where you're coming from and he is a consideration for lynch.

I was hoping we'll get his comments on the rest of us based on the ISOs he's doing and was curious when or if he'll reach the point where someone is not OK and looks like a good foundation for further investigation.

I get what you mean, but I don't see it with the timing of it - everything else so far the game had been short "Here's what I'm doing" posts, a few quick analyses, but very relaxed, low content simple contributions. No particular sense of strategy or tactic, and, crucially, he wasn't getting much pressure or attention.

So while that was basically working for him, what drives him to raving lunacy? I'm inclined to think he believed he saw something.

Stopping by but really not a lot of drive today to give the game a lot of thought and I apologize. Just super tired and bleh.

I'm willing to lynch anyone but dedo or Joe at this point, my preferred lynch is still Carradice. If anyone has any questions of me just ask and I will try to get to them sometime this evening for me in the US.