Faking breadcrumbs is something we talked about in the past, when too many players used them as self-confirmation. With this method established, scum are basically forced to do some breadcrumbing themselves. Hell, I even joked about including breadcrumbs for all kinds of roles in the future, the next time I'm scum, so that I can pick whatever breadcrumb I need later. But I will probably be way too lazy to actually do it.

Hmm. If Micro's claim is faked and we assume for a moment that Micro isn't even a tracker, the reportet selection of targets kind of makes sense too. dedo not moving is a given, due to the Vanilla/Regular thing. Me not moving was probably a bit riskier. Joe might have been safer. But I guess scum!Micro could have been quite confident that I didn't move either. Especially if Carradice actually did investigate me N1, like he claimed.

The only thing that disturbs me about the Micro=scum (and no Tracker) or Micro=scum!Tracker theory is: where is the Town tracker? Or Watcher? We have a confirmed compulsive Visitor. So some kind of movement detection role on Town side is to be expected. Also Micro's first breadcrumbs precede the reveal of the Visitor. So scum!Micro would have had to be set on the Tracker role before it was even clear that the Tracker would be a very likely role.

Nah, that's becoming too convoluted. I think the easiest explanation in this case is, that Micro is actually Town!Tracker with a bit strange target selection.

So, I'll go back to my other favourite suspect Yogs. Scum has to be somewhere and Yogs is still the scummiest among us. In spite of a few good posts, which an experienced player like Yogs could totally write as scum as well.

But before I vote:

@mod: vote count please!

About that - since, admittedly, I'm kind of biased towards Yog in this game I tend to look at him as scum most of the time and have to make a conscious effort to re-read something as if it came from a Town and see how that works. My initial reaction at Yog leaving Flocke as scummiest "for later, after Micro" felt like might have "soft-pre-bus" his buddy to look better while actually aiming down his sights at another player. If that works a few things would happen:

- most likely 2 Townies going down, one of which could be one of the more trusted or more active/dangerous ones;
- a time extension of a couple of days to regroup and figure out what to do next - this would be useful as Yog appears to be in fact busy IRL.
- it's always possible to back-off from that soft future bus later on depending on how things develop
- one more important thing that I initially thought of back then but doesn't really make sense in hindsight was that Yog needs a mislynch to go through and they win anyway, so it doesn't really matter who he promises to lynch Tomorrow as there won't be Tomorrow anyway. I forgot we weren't at MYLO after all even though we were preparing for it for the better part of Yesterday.


So they have a Role Cop, a Tracker, a Goon (there surely has to be a powerless one to do all the killing while the powers are... powering) and an always-on chat while we have a Doctor, an Investigation Bullshitter, sorry, Compulsive Visitor and a 1-time Commuter? Our remaining potential powers must be stacked! Then again, last time when I assumed a well-balanced game and based my reads on that things didn't go so well. But still, isn't that a bit too much?

He breadcrumbed in #81. The game wasn't even on back then, everybody was still fooling around, kung-fu fighting, kicks were fast as lightning. The most notable thing that had happened by that time was were the talks about the avatar exchange.

If that's a fake breadcrumb for a role that isn't unlikely to exist in a normal mafia game that potentially has a couple of powers (which later turned out to suggest that the role is in fact quite likely) and it just happened to work - that's me done, GG scum!Micro, you deserve this game and I'll gladly hand it over to you.

Well it doesn't have to be a town observer - the visitor might have been put in to bait a mafia tracker.

But the point about 'where's the town investigative role?' is still the most solid argument for town micro


I don't think he's as town as that, I am voting for him. But small things unsettle me

- complimenting the mafia's game, (especially as it does appear mafia is doing a good job: does scum yogsloth praise himself? does scum yogsloth draw attention to his team's deepwolfyness?)


- the claim - not the wording of it and what followed that, yogsloth would do that as either alignment, but the timing of it; I think he had three votes when he claimed (?), and I don't think there was enough interest in the wagon for it to feel like a threat (though yogsloth skimming might not have been aware of that...) (and skimming and seeing that the two top wagons were both mafia with deadline approaching might have panicked him...)

^ that started off as being an argument for town yogsloth, but it fell apart. The point I was making was the not-particularly-convincing vanilla claim made at a point which would give town plenty of time to react to it: compared to the massively-convincing cop claim made at the last hour, it's a good look.

against him is his early carradice read, and the vague reversal of it.
and wanting to vote microfish when surely SURELY microfish' claim must be true


So probably I'm doing the same thing I just did with carradice - there's a lot of evidence to suggest he's mafia so I think he's town just to be different? I dunno.


it's what I meant by 'surely it can't be?'

I don't really buy this whole argument but for the sake of discussion I have another angle for you to explore - Yog isn't praising himself. He knows he's not putting enough in the game as he has IRL things that hinders with that. So from his perspective his doing a poor job as mafia (just like Trent mentioned - "By now scum!Yog would have charmed me and he hasn't so he can't be scum").

"The mafia are doing great and since I'm not doing that great personally I can't be mafia". A form of LAMIST, if you will.

Right, sorry.

hmmmm... does yogs do this though?

It makes sense to me as yogs, who enjoys hunting scum and has a fondness for gog despite its amateurish atmosphere, trying to hunt scum and being pleased that it's not easy.

hmmm... does it make sense as scum yogsloth looking for townies incriminating themselves and being pleased that he doesn't find anything?.. ah whatever I dunno

I find that to be a really poor argument and also WIFOM. The only thing I'm slightly giving Yog the benefit of the doubt is his reasoning behind not wanting to indulge me with his proper role claim. Beyond that there are zero things I believe he wouldn't do if he needs to get out of a sticky situation or make a play that favors his team (considering proper game etiquette, of course; there are others that would go even beyond that unfortunately). Maybe I'm wrong but miss me with that "he's too professional to resort to such lowly noob tactics".

Anyway, to each their own. I understand your view better now. It doesn't work for me personally but I accept it does to you.

I didn't mean 'would Yogsloth choose to do it?', but 'is it something he would do?'

I think if he came up with the idea of saying "the mafia are doing really well" when he wasn't doing well in order to suggest he's not on the mafia team he wouldn't refuse to do it for whatever reason - I just don't see the idea coming to him... it's a little convoluted. Yogs tends to be more straightforward, no?


Anyway, it's probably not useful to keep going on about yogsloth, deadline's in what? 10 hours? He's getting lynched unless someone looks elsewhere

In the end it's a game of mafia. Technically anyone would do anything if that's going to help their cause. I don't know, I'm not saying that he meant it in the way I'm explaining, I just found it a bit naive to see complementing the mafia team as a Town tell.

But you are right, no real point in keep going at that. I don't really want to persuade you that he is scum, I was actually hoping that you can persuade me in the opposite as I realize I may be tunneling. But your arguments don't really work for me so yeah.

Speaking of lynches I realize I'm talking a lot but not voting.

vote Yogsloth

After knowing the roles revealed, Micro's breadcrumbs, and with no counter claim I think Micro has to be telling the truth. If he is scum lying with fake breadcrumbs then I tip my hat to him as that is an awesome ploy.

As for yogs, he is always so hard for me to read correctly. I have trouble getting past his not being his charming self when he's scum and keep landing on him leaning Town. Is yogs capable of totally changing his behavior and fooling almost everyone and hoping we will take a laissez faire attitude toward him? Man I am really having trouble seeing this, I know he is capable of it but my gut tells me that's not the case here.

I will not vote Micro, dedo, or Joe today. I am starting to second guess my read on Flocke.

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_mafia_67_mamlakat_al_shams/post1160, why state "Well no counter claim from me", it almost looks like a "Don't look at me" statement.
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_mafia_67_mamlakat_al_shams/post1071, This post looks bad now too to me, it looks like Flocke is trying to cast shade on Micro.

I am at work and can't do a deeper ISO on Flocke, but I am moving them into my willing to vote pile.

OK. I had some time to go back and count votes. With dedo's vote Yogs is at L-1, I think. I am willing to hammer, but I would like for him to write something first. We still have at least 6 hours to go. (depending on whether there is a delay or not)

@Yogs: do you have any amendments to your 'Vanilla' claim or anything else you'd like to share?

Then it has to be Flocke. Or Vitek.

I agree with Yog about one thing and that is his read of Lift in #1176. Even though he [Lift] is perfectly capable of fooling me most evidence point in his favor rather than against him. Even thought others don't seem to agree with my read of you, the way you stuck with your vote on Carradice from start to finish doesn't make sense between scumbuddies, even for the sake of appearances. The only possibility I can think of that makes some sense is that you disliked PMGate so much that you decided to punish Carradice for it but I don't think you'd do something like that.

Don't hammer, please. I would like to check something after I finish work.
We don't really need to hammer anyway, do we? Maybe someone can come up with something in the next few hours.

Actually you're right. That is one of the few things I wouldn't do, as Scum or as Town. I think I'm not a vindictive person and punishing a member of one's own faction just out of vengeance for some past misbehavior would be very petty and stupid.

There were, however, some incidences over the past games where I voted someone not caring whether they are on my faction or not. Cases where someone was so disruptive to the game that I felt they needed to be removed from it and where talking it out didn't help. That was the case with Scene in this game. However, Carradice was not disruptive and I don't think that anyone voted for him on D2 to punish him for not reading his PM at the start of D1. Independent of faction, that would be a very bad reason.

About hammering: you're right again. We don't need a hammer. We're not running the risk of no-lynch unless someone makes a last minute effort to balance trains. But I don't think anyone would do that at this point. Scum wouldn't dare to show their hand in this way and Town has no reason to want a no-lynch. So we can wait until deadline. But I won't be around then. I'll have internet access for another two or three hours today, then I'm gone into the weekend again.

I messed up my usual separation of thoughts so #1189 might have been a bit confusing.


This bit refers to Lift:

This bit refers to Trent:

Not sure if this was meant as a follow-up of #1189, see above.


I still want to check that something but I need a bit of time to do so comfortably.