Huh?

Don't worry. Do whatever suits you. It doesn't mean your way is worse (if you don't misattribute qoutes) but it is not something I personally prefer to read. ;-)

Because I'm not really in a position to convince anyone of anything.

Microfish is a good lynch as well, I'm happy with either.

But it never was about "long due" vs "long overdue" in two different posts. It was about the discrepancy between "long due" (= Vanilla soft claim) and "Cop" (the actual claim a bit later). This discrepancy is something that Carradice could have easily cleared up, if he had been Town. But he was evasive instead. And exactly your refusing to see the evidence against Carradice is, as you put it yourself, scummy.

By the way, it's quite funny that you say that my supposed unwillingness to see something is scummy, right after using your own unwillingness to see something as your defense. Quite the double standard, isn't it?

About your other question: yes, I have thought about it and I came to the conclusion that Carradice endorsing you is NAI. Especially with your ready defense pointing that endorsment out it could very well be a scum ploy - to give you exactly that defense. So it could be an attempt by cornered scum to drag a townie with him or it could be a planned ploy between Carradice and you. 50/50. And therefore NAI.

And yes, you should claim. I think that's what dedo meant with 'consider yourself being effectively at L-1'. Trent is willing to put you at L-1 or hammer. Vitek is willing to hammer you. So for all purposes you are at L-1 ... and yet you delay your claim and go to bed instead. What are you hoping to gain by this? Are you trying to repeat Carradice's strategy of claiming some important role as close to the deadline as possible to give Town little time to react? Why would Town!Micro NOT claim at this point?

1. Everyone else seems to be townreading Joe except you, but no one has commented that it should be odd to them that you are scum-reading Joe.

2. Okay, thank you. I'll try to do shorter posts that tag fewer at once.

+++++++++++++++++++++

1. yes, i do see that now, though I hadn't at the time.
2. I hoped you would find it amusing. And yes, it is a double standard. There is/was, however, a bit of ironic belief that my accusation is somewhat true. I hope not, but still....
3. Yes. Thank you. I appreciate it and apologize for my tone being harsh.
4. What would I gain? I would show that I stand by what i believed in earlier; namely that at L1, one should try and reason one's way away from L1 prior to claiming. Also, I was falling asleep at my keyboard and wanted to be able to engage with ppl.



++++++++++++++++++++ Role: Tracker
Limitation: 1 use / night
Modifier: N/A
Alignment: Town
Power: I can choose another player during the Night, and unless blocked I can find out who my choice visits (if any).
Teammates: Other Town

BC here:

(read in reverse order) Apologies to @ZFR
but it was for a good cause and I couldn't figure out how else to work in a "K."


N1 I chose dedo. He did nothing. This was one of the things that gave me pause and made me swing round on him until I realized he could still have been scum and done nothing. BC here:
N2, I tracked Lift. he also did nothing.
This is why i said,
The fact that I was PR is why I missed everything in the whole "vanilla vs regular" flap because I was neither.

Bump

(Note: start of Intrigue Phase 3 may be delayed due to crunch. yay!)

Thank you.

Vote Flocke

as the waggon on Yogs is going nowhere and voting Flocke is perhaps my best bet at staying alive;
Also, they have been hesitant at times to commit to a read on anyone.

Is it just 857? or were there more explicit endorsements?

Some time after post 857, carradice wrote, in reply to me:

which seems to suggest to me that he'd had hope of surviving the day. Therefore he didn't see himself as a sinking ship post 857.



I reckon flocke's town. Her general tone is towny. I don't think mafia gets hung up on the "was carradice lying about reading his PM?" thing. Why would they?

Vitek's been putting pressure on microfish just recently, which is a good look if microfish is mafia, and I'm struggling to picture town microfish.

Yogsloth - his early read of carradice said he didn't see anything mafia-y, but then he said (he reread)? and he'd changed his mind - he later said this slight scum lean was based on carradice (being helpful)? and it was very weak. It's not a great look now.
In his favour, microfish is voting for him, but there is the whole "the whole "scumbuddies distance from a sinking ship" thing" thing.
Reading his posts, I do think town but how wrong was I about carradice?

Lifthrasil seems normal for Lifthrasil. He is picking up on things and asking questions in a way that feels genuine.


But I might have to rethink the whole thing if microfish flips town.


"try and" claim? strange wording.

Was this sentence definitely meant to be posted in the game?


-----


AAAAAAAAAND

unvote microfish

dammit. It seemed so obvious. Now I don't know what to think. Hard to argue with those breadcrumbs though.

This is about the solidest claim there can be:

- We know there was a compulsive visitor, so a tracker is expected.
- Tracker was breadcrumbed before the compulsive visitor was known publicly.
- Results on two people, both breadcrumbed, dedo's has been already verified-by-his-word in game.

Anybody want to counter claim?

Huh?

Why haven't you doubted Carradice's claim more if you had investigative role?

Like I stated multiple times already. Carradice was a done deal. And I said "I want to see what ZFR flips". Notice "I". I didn't expect anyone to vote for him.
Let's face it: Had I hammered, you would now be going for me because in that case I, "of course" (not to mention "obviously"), were Carradice's Mafia partner trying to collect some town points. If I had voted somewhere in between, it would be: It was obviously a sinking ship, so I (as Carradice's Mafia partner) jumped of it while I still could.
You're doomed if you do, you're doomed if you don't. No "winning" this one.

Where did I imply that?

(bolding by me) Right.
I state loud and clear "Not voting Carradice today" and do exactly that.
I come up with a TownCarridice scenario that is alienating everyone.
And probably other things I forgot.
All of that went totally under everone's radar and noone put me in their scumlist for that. Worked out perfectly.
Yes, maybe that was all deliberate so I can say exactly that now. (Imagine reasoning something like in post 1119.)
So, no "winning" that one either.

In regard to justification: As far as I see it (which might be wrong), everyone is making statements the way they need them to be, in order to be able to reach their goal (whichever that may be). (See two of my prior statements in this very post for examples of what I mean.) Why do you expect me to be different? Just because I'm new?

and
I'm suspecting WIFOM (from Carradice's point of view). So I'm taking who he voted for and refused to vote for into account. I stated a possible Lift-Carradice connection in my post 918.
Why are you (Vitek) acting like I want to lynch them both "just to be sure" or something? It just seems to me that either of them could give valuable info to review possible suspects/find new ones as appropriate. (Or they are both town.) If you now want to know why I voted ZFR for wanting info: See my previous posts (and the very top and bottom of this post) on that.


Why are you only asking me that question? Take a look at:
(bolding by me)
So, that "you are actively looking for any reasons to find me scummy because you want to come to that conclusion" (1139) right back at you.
Unless of course my theory in 918 might actually be right and you're on a Mafia team with Dedo and that's why you didn't notice, he did the same thing.
But even in this case both of you with Carradice putting yourself in line of sight like that, even if keeping it really toned down, seems risky. Unless you deemed it worth it because it's toned down and "no way all three of them would group like that".
So, I'm still good voting Lift, because (part of my post 918):
"I'm wondering if Carradice and Lift are a Mafia together.
Carradice lying about not reading the PM, then bringing the "opportunistic fellows and jumpy scum" (post 262/275) argument, stating those are the ones I want to lynch first. (Good thing Lift wasn't jumpy? But then again, there is 24/7-mafia-chat.) Dedo hadn't even voted for Carradice at this point.
And then Lift joins in (266) painting dedo's questions as "possible angry mafia partner". Yes, he stated it was only for completeness sake in 276. But it probably doesn't hurt to put ideas out there, something might stick? Especially since he once again mentions dedo as Mafia partner for Carradice in 435, if Carradice flips Mafia."


Or that is just how you two planned that out, because it makes sense and it's way better then "we wouldn't do that, if we were Mafia Partners, it's to obvious", besides, that argumentation seems to usually get the counter-argumentation of "which is exactly what you would say to weasle your way out of this".


There are always at least two sides to anything. Why does that particular line of thought annoy you to a (I'm assuming) more then usual degree? Why do you think looking at things from angles others don't is so very bad? Isn't that a part of the game too?
Honestly: I still think it's suspicous to state things explicitly "for the record". Everyone (who wants to) can read up on this. Why emphasize this? I don't understand the need to point that out unless to appear towny.


I'm supposed to look for Mafia. Everyone can look like that to me from the right angle, which is something my first game made me realize. Putting someone as town doesn't quite work for me. The other way around: Putting everyone as scummy wouldn't work for everyone who isn't me (I presume). So I try to prioritize and take another look as information becomes available.


Ever wondered, if I did all those things to make it relatively easily to find reasons to lynch me? <- WIFOM, I know.
Want to know something really crazy?
Trent's post 58 und Vitek's post 198 delivered the pitch for Carradice's post 301. Maybe they're his Mafia partners.
I'm suspecting everyone one way or another. And I'm obviously obsessed with Carradice. That sentence is not a joke. He is the only Mafia we got so far, that's the only lead I have.
Carradice was rather vocal, Trent and Vitek don't seem all that vocal. Probably not Mafia together, because someone has to help town mislynch in a more active manner?

Interesting claim. With a compulsive visitor a Tracker is a likely role - as was discussed already. Now we have to wait for everyone to show up to see whether there is a counter claim.

meanwhile:
unvote Microfish

But you're not off the hook yet. I am willing to put my vote back. While we wait for a possible counter-claim, some questions: did your role PM actually say that you have no modifier? And does your power description actually mention the possibility of getting blocked? Also, I get why you tracked me, but why did you choose to track dedo N1?

Also: why do you say that the wagon on Yogs isn't going anywhere? He is read as scummy by quite some players. You make it sound as if you would prefer to vote Yogs (who would also be my preference over Flocke) but reluctantly vote Flocke to stay alive yourself. That's not very towny of you.

So, in clear terms: who out of Flocke/Yogs is scummier to you? And whom (out of all players) would you vote if you don't take existing wagons into account?

Well, Some time after post 857, carradice wrote, in reply to me: Hmm. Well, I hadn't seen that, so i don't know? I know he did turn on me when i started doubting him. Reread the bit about 906 as quoted here:
Idk, it seemed blatant to me, but maybe only because I was so surprised at the reactionary statements. I almost called him on it multiple times, but I was trying to lay low and not make myself a target for scum, and thus I avoided direct confrontation with him, until it seemed I had no choice because of the mountain of evidence. I don't know. To appear town? This also means the pool of 3 (micro/yogs/flocke) is drying up faster than a puddle in the desert. I am town tracker, people like Yog's post and think him town, and now the two of you are saying Flocke is town....
One of my main failures in this game is that i go into these games thinking everyone is town and have to try and convince myself of the opposite; rather than thinking everyone is scum and looking for proof. I find it tiring to try and always read the worst about everyone and everything. That came out poorly, but hopefully you get my meaning. yes. As stated, I try and logic my way out of L-1 before claiming, or at least i do when I have a PR. Also, I was exhausted and not thinking clearly by that point. I enjoyed how suddenly everyone was talking about food all of a sudden with my KFR mention. Good fried chicken (especially homemade "fried chicken legs breaded in cornflakes") is fantastic.


+++++++++++++++++

1. my thoughts were "i [or random townie] think Joe is X, you think he is Y. This should look odd to me, if I am convinced that he is X, and I should question why you think he is Y."

2. Why I didn't doubt Carradice more? Until EOD 1, I mostly believed him (>75%). Then, when he claimed Cop, I figured that, as was stated, he would self-resolve so I'd be better off tracking someone who would live than someone who would be eliminated.
As soon as I saw that he lived, I began kicking myself for not tracking him. However, it is possible that C did not lie about who he copped incase C himself was tracked or the one visited was, in turn, being watched.
In this case, I would have been even more on his side because my investigation would have backed him up.
[this: >:-( is directed at myself]

@Carradice did you lie about your choice in this matter?

Micro claimed tracker. Well, no counter-claim from me.
Would Mafia go through the trouble of false breadcrumbing?

I will be back tomorrow evening.

Oooh, development!

Good job on those breadcrumbs, by the way. I never got the hang of doing that. At one point when I asked Yog about his role I almost made one but I couldn't come up with decent looking this for the last couple of letters and I decided it's not worth it.

Anyway, unless someone decides to counterclaim which I find unlikely I'm pretty much sold.

Still need to read everything after #1151.

1. Fair enough.
I was filling out the form of what was allowed in Rule 7 (post 3). My PM makes 0 mention of a modifier.

I tracked dedo because, as i was catching up just before the end of N1, dedo looked scummier to me than others. As of the start of page 10, I was going to track ZFR but switched by the end of D1 (page 14)

I cannot quote my PM, but I told Pooks "track ZFR; might switch to dedo or joe" early in N1, but then later said, 2. Because when skimming, i thought I saw that everyone liked Yog's return-from-vacation post and there was nobody voting along with me. however, Flocke just showed up with a post thatI can easily see coming from T!Flocke.

As such, I will go back to yogs, even though I will be accused of flip-flopping.

In a vacuum, I could vote for
Vitek, Yogs, Trent (?) Lift (?)
I would not vote for Joe or Dedo, and think I will not vote for flocke anymore toDay.

unvote flocke
vote yogsloth I'm just not sure who scum is in this game.

@Vitek Please explain (yes, again, perhaps) why you think Joe is scum, or link me to your posts where you explain your thinking?

As was said previously (perhaps even by scum) congrats to the scum team so far for a very well-played game.