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Elmofongo: But do enemies start becoming damage sponges at high level in Skyrim? (Have not played it yet)
Not really, no. There's a small amount of inflation but for the most part it never slogs like Fallout3 did. Skyrim really is a very well polished game and I can recommend it almost without exception if you liked Oblivion. You can also get whomped easily in Skyrim at low levels, especially if you go wandering. Poorly geared? One sabertooth or angry bear can do you in. Decently geared, killed a few dragons? The giants still don't give a damn about your achievements and will backhand you into the ocean.
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Elmofongo: Also I just prefer the kind of gameplay where you explore dangerous territory at level 1. Like you find a dungeon with say a high level dragon enemy and you know you cannot face him yet and coming back ready just makes the encounter satisfying.
You also prefer to just onehit-kill everything in the two territories you skipped to get through the dangerous one? Because that would be the case with just set levels...
It's possible to get high lvl equipment that normaly would drop after lvl 30 with a lvl 5 char. I've done it myself, you just have to know where to look for it - yes, I'm talking about vanilla Skyrim with no mods.
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Siannah: Yay, Beyond the Beef.... buggiest quest ever in any game published by Bethesda - but then you see the same Obsidian fanboys being mad at Bethesda because of the Metacritic rating / no bonus thing.... blaming the shitty engine, the shitty QA of the publisher (not the dev - no, no), the casuals failing to understand the quest or whatever.
Let's face it once and for all: Obsidian did their share to botch NV Metacritic rating.
Ah yes, Obsidian fanboys. Maybe you missed my sentence on above about Deus Ex: HR, that even "nostalgic" extremists are receptive to the better made modern game takes. I've learnt long ago not to be a fanboy of any company since they may change for the worse anytime. One day they're making your favourite games, the next they're talking about DLCs and F2P.

And no, I've been blaming beth for many things since the inception of $2 horse armour. That goes way before Fallout 3 and NV.

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Siannah: You talk about quests, not level or world design. Yes quests are in general better in NV. But Level design? I'd say about on par. World design? Hell no. A desert is inherently emptier and more difficult to fill meaningfully, then a ruined city. And DC alone was more interesting to explore than the complete Mojave.
I'll agree with you on level design which needs to be good in games in general. Then you realise that locales like Vault 11 is something like an explorable dungeon level. And I've not seen anything as good as that in recent games, maybe not even in the older "nostalgic" games.
As a person who prefers Fallout to be isometric view and turn-based, I don't really give a crap about how good looking the ruined building is or how many props there are in the desert. It's still important in isometric games to give you the sense of scale and wonder and maybe something extra to do, maybe hidden treasures in a cave when u explore or a hidden base when you explore the corners of the map like in Wasteland, but probably not as important as in a 3rd or 1st person RPG. In fact, I find 1994 X-com's atmosphere and dread to be so much more than today's realistic graphics card burning 3D world design.. For a better comparison, you have the old Gothics that absolutely blow the TES games out of the water in terms of immersion.
Also, If I wanted to explore a world, I'd load up my city in Cities Skylines with the FP camera mod and follow a car/pedestrian for an hour or so. Or drive around in GTA for an hour or so, but at least I can blow stuff up when I feel like it. Heck, I can even make my own world in my 3D modelling program given the time and motivation and play around with camera controls.

It's good quality sidequests, memorable NPCs, hard interesting combat and good writing that engages me. I like to have many ways to complete a single sidequest. I'd like to have the sidequest have multiple outcomes. Thankfully, The Witcher 3 has that, if you wanna quote a most recent game, early in game at least.

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Siannah: Actually, I'd start disputing at the better writing part, at least partially. Yes, the writing for quests was better. But the overarching storyline? Baby-eating roman baddies? .... sry, you have me speechless.
The Legion in NV is really that hard to believe in a anarchy post-apocalyptic world? When you have stuff like ISIS in our real civilised world doing exactly the same thing as the Legion except worse?

Sorry, but seeing this made me more speechless:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05akmWwvzBQ

.... I give you the answer: it's not there. Criticising Bethesda? "Hell yeah, I'm on board!!". Asking the same person doing so with Obsidian where it applies? "What? Shut up n00b, you know nuthin' about RPG".
Like I said, I've been blaming beth since the inception of horse armour to the most recent near-implementation of paid mods with steam. I'm not on board because it's cool to do so... Same deal with my dislike of EA.

EDIT: Btw, I did not downvote your post. Not sure who did it but it wasn't me.
Post edited June 05, 2015 by cw8
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LiquidOxygen80: Yeah, I'm expecting this to be Skyrim with guns. I'll probably play it once there's a complete edition out and on sale. I have little faith in Bethesda to do Fallout any justice, especially after Obsidian did the franchise so much better, despite time crunches, etc, that got put on them.
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OneFiercePuppy: But if Fallout 3 hadn't sold well, Bethesda wouldn't have gone ahead with funding the outsourced development of New Vegas. Obsidian has said they'd love to work on Fallout again; if Fallout 4 doesn't sell well, Bethesda won't have incentive to repeat their offer.

I hope Fallout 4 sells well, and I hope Obsidian gets another go at the IP, because I bet I'd prefer their version. Again.
You're absolutely right, but that also has a flip side, wherein what happened with HoMM 3 bringing a more casual audience who feels the need to sort of dump on everything that came before it, happened with people whose first Fallout game WAS 3. That said, though, I'd rather have the license alive and kicking, then collecting dust in Bethesda's IP catalogue. I just really hope that if there IS a spinoff, that they give it to Obsidian again, and not Behaviour Interactive, as the leaker suggested. /start sarcasm I'm sure the people that brought us a great game like "Wet" would certainly do the IP justice. /end sarcasm :D
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Elmofongo: Also I just prefer the kind of gameplay where you explore dangerous territory at level 1. Like you find a dungeon with say a high level dragon enemy and you know you cannot face him yet and coming back ready just makes the encounter
satisfying.
The Witcher 3. On Death March.
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OneFiercePuppy: But if Fallout 3 hadn't sold well, Bethesda wouldn't have gone ahead with funding the outsourced development of New Vegas. Obsidian has said they'd love to work on Fallout again; if Fallout 4 doesn't sell well, Bethesda won't have incentive to repeat their offer.

I hope Fallout 4 sells well, and I hope Obsidian gets another go at the IP, because I bet I'd prefer their version. Again.
They said they would love to work on Fallout again. But iirc, they also said they preferably would not wanna work with bethesda again for good reason. Or maybe I just read that from a forum that someone made up?
Post edited June 05, 2015 by cw8
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cw8: They said they would love to work on Fallout again. But iirc, they also said they preferably would not wanna work with bethesda again for good reason. Or maybe I just read that from a forum that someone made up?
Hell if I know, man. By 9am I've forgotten what I had for breakfast and by 1500 I have to keep checking to see if I remembered pants. I read a thing somewhere that said somebody from Obsidian wanted to work on Fallout again. That's basically the limit of my willingness to research this point XD
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cw8: They said they would love to work on Fallout again. But iirc, they also said they preferably would not wanna work with bethesda again for good reason. Or maybe I just read that from a forum that someone made up?
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OneFiercePuppy: Hell if I know, man. By 9am I've forgotten what I had for breakfast and by 1500 I have to keep checking to see if I remembered pants. I read a thing somewhere that said somebody from Obsidian wanted to work on Fallout again. That's basically the limit of my willingness to research this point XD
Haha, that's nice, because I forget things 5 mins after being told. :D
Oh man been waiting for this... so it's basically the crew that made Fallout 3 right?
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OldFatGuy: Oh man been waiting for this... so it's basically the crew that made Fallout 3 right?
Oh I do hope so.
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Elmofongo: The whole point of the level scailing is to let casuals beat the game at level 1.
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Siannah: Not that again....
No, you're wrong. It's to open up the world and actually take the "go and do what YOU want" approach, instead of sending you down a more or less given path.

Skyrim with set levels: you play a mage. So you'd want to join the College of Winterhold. You can actually join, but the first quests sends 10 level higher mobs against you, as the devs thought that's the appropriate level range to start it. Regardless, you somehow managed to get through the whole questline, despite that it was at least 10 levels over your character.
You then join the Companions in Whiterun, only to find out that you outleveled that questline by 15 levels....
Well, in my opinion there is nothing wrong with this. (Warining: the following post describe strictly my vision. If you -a generic "you"- don't agree for any rerason, it is perfeclty fine! It's nice to have different opinions.)
I'm thinking about Gothic (the original trilogy): the games had set levels, yet the world felt as open as it could ever be; nothing was impossible, yet depending on your level and gear exploring certain areas could have proven to be way too difficult to be sustainable, and you had either to turn back or to go on stealthily; if you managed to get trough, though, the rewards were more than appropriate. That is also part of the fun and makes the experience more "real"; the game didn't throw in your face everything you could do right on the beginning, so the feeling of progression felt extremely rewarding -something that I have never experienced in any Bethesda game after Morrowind (which had set levels, too, even if in every location some of the enemies were scaling with you. The same reasoning I made for Gothic can be applied here, also -no wonders ESIII is my favourite of the series).

Back to the example of the College: if I was the head of a wizard academy, I wouldn't just accept anyone, but only mages with a certain level of experience behind them, after they have been put to the test.
In Gothic, you could become a Templar only after you proved yourself both in loyalty and in strength (I think you needed at least level 10 to join), because they are elite warriors trusted with the protection of their people, not random whimps that must join due to plot requirements and then walk away doing their own business.
In Morrowind, to increase your rank, start more important missions and eventually become the Guildmaster, you had to be be both efficient and strong, meeting the necesssary skill requirements and fulfilling your duties. This is normal, especially in an RPG aimed to be “immersive”!

Right now, on contrary, you can just beat anyone, anytime. It is a bit like a wounded escaped slave in ancient Rome who decides to tackle the Praetorians just out of spite for the Emperor -and wins, like slaying a dragon (a legendary, apparently invulnerable being) with a toothpick or like operating as a specialist surgeon without even getting a degree on medical science.
It is normal to dash through a cave full of kobolds at level 100, but it was very hard at level 1; in the same way, slaying those that should be overwhelmingly powerful monsters at low level does not feel really epic. The players need to understand when they can do something, and that is an important part of the game itself. That's the main fault of post-Morrowind Bethesda (well, I don't really know about Skyrim, since I have played them all but that one), imo: there is never a real danger. You know you can survive every possible encounter, so there is no tension. You are right, this way the world opens up and allows you to play at your pace, but what is the price for this?
I think level scaling is dull, because you can never really feel either strong or weak, and there is no sense of progression -at least, imo. I understand that the new choices of Bethesda are going another way for very precise and evident reasons, yet I cannot stop to feel like they are doing it to appease people who don't like the letters “R” and “P” in RPG.
Personally, this kills my interest in a game.
Post edited June 05, 2015 by Enebias
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RottenRotz: it looks great,reminds me of fallout 2 in some aspects.best thing is that its not as grey as f3
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almabrds: Don't you mean green?
true..even worse
Hopefully this time the game won't be as bug riddled and Fucked as the last two were!
That "trailer" looks so cheap, if I didn't know it was official I'd say it was fan-made
Post edited June 05, 2015 by Crosmando
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Crosmando: That "trailer" looks so cheap, if I didn't know it was official I'd say it was fan-made
Bethsoft are Cheap Bastards! I'm so glad CARMACK got out!
Post edited June 05, 2015 by fr33kSh0w2012
WTF, and they also dropped a pre-order on Steam with that trailer and ONE screenshot:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/377160/

If I didn't know better I'd say Bethesda's fanbase are a bit stupid to fall for this obviously money-grab (I mean you'd have to be stupid to put down $80 USD for 1 poorly-made 3 minute trailer which shows zero gameplay, and a grand total of 1 screenshot which is obviously not ingame). If I had to guess I'd say the game isn't even in development yet and Bethsoft just decided to dump this trailer because of all the neverending fanboy hype.
Post edited June 05, 2015 by Crosmando