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Nergal01: Well, if NV offers an alternative that you can use or disregard, in accordance with your playstyle, I call that an improvement.
Just doesn't work for Skyrim though, as Fenixp pointed out. Hasn't prevented criticism from the "Bethesda sucks, Obsidian can do no wrong" crowd. My point.
Now add in how likely it is, that Bethesda continues in that department with their Skyrim system in F4. Thank you.
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Nergal01: That's what Logan's Loophole was for. Besides, Fallout 3 wasn't any better in that regard, either.
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Siannah: I'm not claiming F3 being better at all. I'm claiming the same guys bashing F3 and Skyrim over this, failing to see it in Obsidian's NV.

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NoNewTaleToTell: That's an odd way to spell Blood On The Ice.
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Siannah: If you see Blood on the Ice as buggier than Beyond the Beef, compare the bugs section on uesp vs NVwiki.

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NoNewTaleToTell: And no, I'm not a fanboy of Fallout 1/2 who must defend them for the honor of nostalgia, Fallout 3 was my introduction to the Fallout series. You can dislike Fallout 3 without being the dreaded fan of the first two Fallouts or Obsidian.
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Siannah: Absolutely. And I have no problem with it. NV was for a large part better than F3. Not on the world design, at least for me, but this is personal preference and I have no problem accepting other opinions.
But take all the criticism against F3 in this thread alone and compare it with NV - how many fail on facts or, at the very least, disregard any viable criticism against NV / Obsidian? Objectivity, what's that again?
I'm familiar with both of those wikis, I suppose my statement was based on the fact that Blood On The Ice has been broken for me (in one way or another) more often than not for me, I don't think it even triggered at all on my last playthrough despite spending a large amount of time in Windhelm. Beyond The Beef worked fine for me, besides requiring me to noclip through the detective's room due to crashing whenever I stepped foot in it.

Oh I won't disagree that Bethesda at times catches too much flack for Fallout 3, but Fallout 3 is (for whatever reason) considered by the general gaming community as one of the best games of its era, while New Vegas isn't, and it's treated as such in most corners of the internet. Even here some people are trying to downplay criticisms of Fallout 3 by attributing any criticism to nostalgia glasses or fanboy-ism, so I'm gonna submit that it (clearly biased arguments) happens on both sides.
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NoNewTaleToTell: Oh I won't disagree that Bethesda at times catches too much flack for Fallout 3, but Fallout 3 is (for whatever reason) considered by the general gaming community as one of the best games of its era, while New Vegas isn't, and it's treated as such in most corners of the internet. Even here some people are trying to downplay criticisms of Fallout 3 by attributing any criticism to nostalgia glasses or fanboy-ism, so I'm gonna submit that it (clearly biased arguments) happens on both sides.
I always felt that while New Vegas is a better RPG, Fallout 3 is a better game overal. New Vegas stood on its writing, and I'm willing to bet that the locations you remember from New Vegas, you mainly remember because of characters and stories told there than because of the eviromental design itself. Fallout 3 offers more freedom, its world is a lot more varied and I always felt that it managed to capture the feeling of wasteland a lot better than New Vegas ever did via enviromental storytelling and just the general atmosphere.

I think I like New Vegas more tho, mainly because I love good RPGs. Nonetheless, I can definitely see why would majority prefer F3
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Fenixp: Fallout 3 offers more freedom, its world is a lot more varied and I always felt that it managed to capture the feeling of wasteland a lot better than New Vegas ever did via enviromental storytelling and just the general atmosphere.
I do not think that Fallout 3 offers more freedom. In fact, I felt the general story concept to be terribly limiting as to who you can be and what you're supposed to do. NV gave me a lot more freedom to be the kind of character I wanted to be with the motivations that I wanted.
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Nergal01: I do not think that Fallout 3 offers more freedom. In fact, I felt the general story concept to be terribly limiting as to who you can be and what you're supposed to do. NV gave me a lot more freedom to be the kind of character I wanted to be with the motivations that I wanted.
Yes, New Vegas offered a lot more freedom within its storyline, but the actual freedom of movement and exploration was a lot better in Fallout 3.
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Fenixp: Yes, New Vegas offered a lot more freedom within its storyline, but the actual freedom of movement and exploration was a lot better in Fallout 3.
Well, I will agree that Fallout 3 opened up earlier than New Vegas, but once NV did, I felt the experience was a lot more rewarding, in connection with the greater freedom of choice within the storyline and side content.
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Fenixp: I always felt that while New Vegas is a better RPG, Fallout 3 is a better game overal.
Except for Broken Steel, which the FO3 mechanics were not prepared to handle :/

Fallout3 had great level design. The whole city felt like I'd imagine a dilapidated city would feel, and I loved that very early quest that sent you to the giant supermarket. But I can't fault New Vegas for bad level design - a desert should feel open and aimless. Wandering the DC area felt a lot like walking around downtown DC (in fact, at one point while walking in the monument area I realized I was going places based solely on points of interest from the game...that's how good the scaled-down geography was for FO3), but walking around the Vegas wasteland felt a lot like convoying through the Afghanistan desert(which is actually pretty much a perfect analogue for the New Vegas world, and a climate match for Vegas).

I'm a sucker for the BoS and was so disappointed at their treatment in NV, but it worked with the lore. FO3 was a tighter, more focused game - and that might mean better. But all the differences in NV felt right, and neither of the originals were exactly railroads.
TL;DR

I liked FNV a lot. I thought Fo3 was okay until I played New Vegas.

Not really interested in Fallout 4, but I am a free market guy and will buy it if I like it.

Zero hype though.
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Fenixp: I always felt that while New Vegas is a better RPG, Fallout 3 is a better game overal.
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OneFiercePuppy: Except for Broken Steel, which the FO3 mechanics were not prepared to handle :/

Fallout3 had great level design. The whole city felt like I'd imagine a dilapidated city would feel, and I loved that very early quest that sent you to the giant supermarket. But I can't fault New Vegas for bad level design - a desert should feel open and aimless. Wandering the DC area felt a lot like walking around downtown DC (in fact, at one point while walking in the monument area I realized I was going places based solely on points of interest from the game...that's how good the scaled-down geography was for FO3), but walking around the Vegas wasteland felt a lot like convoying through the Afghanistan desert(which is actually pretty much a perfect analogue for the New Vegas world, and a climate match for Vegas).

I'm a sucker for the BoS and was so disappointed at their treatment in NV, but it worked with the lore. FO3 was a tighter, more focused game - and that might mean better. But all the differences in NV felt right, and neither of the originals were exactly railroads.
What was wrong with Broken Steel? It was also made in response the game's ending which you could not continue.
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Elmofongo: What was wrong with Broken Steel? It was also made in response the game's ending which you could not continue.
Yeah, I get what it was for; I personally like the original ending for FO3 but also liked how they handled the opening of Broken Steel, so I didn't whine about it either way. But the game was designed for 20 levels, and with the level 30 cap for Broken Steel, you encountered one of the worst design problems in a Fallout game - level-matched enemies that took so long to kill that it stopped being fun. I have no problem with difficulty; no problem with equipment decay and scarce resources (it's Fallout, ffs, resources should be even more scarce than they are), but if you didn't zerg right through the plot, you'd hit level 30 early on in the Broken Steel expansion and have Super Mutant Masters who took 200 rounds of 10mm to kill or so many shots from a Tri-beam laser rifle that killing two of them took it from 100% to a jamming heap of scrap.

Don't get me wrong; I liked Broken Steel. I liked seeing the Enclave flex a little. But the game mechanics were not prepared for those extra ten levels.
Having played the game due to a friend's suggestion and without checking out reviews, I never realized Fallout 3 had caused such mixed feelings. I thought it was an amazing game, and I had sunk so many hours into it. Then again I'm an heathen, never played any other game from the franchise.
I'm interested in Fallout 4 and would also like to give a try to New Vegas, but I'm not to keen on Steam.
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OneFiercePuppy: Yeah, I get what it was for; I personally like the original ending for FO3 but also liked how they handled the opening of Broken Steel, so I didn't whine about it either way. But the game was designed for 20 levels, and with the level 30 cap for Broken Steel, you encountered one of the worst design problems in a Fallout game - level-matched enemies that took so long to kill that it stopped being fun. I have no problem with difficulty; no problem with equipment decay and scarce resources (it's Fallout, ffs, resources should be even more scarce than they are), but if you didn't zerg right through the plot, you'd hit level 30 early on in the Broken Steel expansion and have Super Mutant Masters who took 200 rounds of 10mm to kill or so many shots from a Tri-beam laser rifle that killing two of them took it from 100% to a jamming heap of scrap.
Yeah. The Ghoul Reavers were the worst of them all. During my recent playthrough, I reached level 20 at about the half-way mark. Making your way through some of the DC sewers with sometimes several Reavers at once, now that was intense.

The Super Mutant masters weren't that bad if you shot their tri-laser rfiles out of their hands and picked the gun up before they could do it. Bad for the gun if you wanted it, but good for you.
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Elmofongo: What was wrong with Broken Steel? It was also made in response the game's ending which you could not continue.
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OneFiercePuppy: Yeah, I get what it was for; I personally like the original ending for FO3 but also liked how they handled the opening of Broken Steel, so I didn't whine about it either way. But the game was designed for 20 levels, and with the level 30 cap for Broken Steel, you encountered one of the worst design problems in a Fallout game - level-matched enemies that took so long to kill that it stopped being fun. I have no problem with difficulty; no problem with equipment decay and scarce resources (it's Fallout, ffs, resources should be even more scarce than they are), but if you didn't zerg right through the plot, you'd hit level 30 early on in the Broken Steel expansion and have Super Mutant Masters who took 200 rounds of 10mm to kill or so many shots from a Tri-beam laser rifle that killing two of them took it from 100% to a jamming heap of scrap.

Don't get me wrong; I liked Broken Steel. I liked seeing the Enclave flex a little. But the game mechanics were not prepared for those extra ten levels.
Oh I hated level scailing in modern bethesda. Can't we just have dungeons that are too high level and just wait until you become high level?

The whole point of the level scailing is to let casuals beat the game at level 1.
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Elmofongo: The whole point of the level scailing is to let casuals beat the game at level 1.
Not that again....
No, you're wrong. It's to open up the world and actually take the "go and do what YOU want" approach, instead of sending you down a more or less given path.

Skyrim with set levels: you play a mage. So you'd want to join the College of Winterhold. You can actually join, but the first quests sends 10 level higher mobs against you, as the devs thought that's the appropriate level range to start it. Regardless, you somehow managed to get through the whole questline, despite that it was at least 10 levels over your character.
You then join the Companions in Whiterun, only to find out that you outleveled that questline by 15 levels....
Post edited June 05, 2015 by Siannah
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Elmofongo: The whole point of the level scailing is to let casuals beat the game at level 1.
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Siannah: Not that again....
No, you're wrong. It's to open up the world and actually take the "go and do what YOU want" approach, instead of sending you down a more or less given path.

Skyrim with set levels: you play a mage. So you'd want to join the College of Winterhold. You can actually join, but the first quests sends 10 level higher mobs against you, as the devs thought that's the appropriate level range to start it. Regardless, you somehow managed to get through the whole questline, despite that it was at least 10 levels over your character.
You then join the Companions in Whiterun, only to find out that you outleveled that questline by 15 levels....
But do enemies start becoming damage sponges at high level in Skyrim? (Have not played it yet)

Also I just prefer the kind of gameplay where you explore dangerous territory at level 1. Like you find a dungeon with say a high level dragon enemy and you know you cannot face him yet and coming back ready just makes the encounter satisfying.