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paladin181: It's not Muslims, but extremists who happen to be Muslims.
I'm deeply saddened by the religious witch hunts that ISIS/ISIL are inciting by claiming that they are Muslim.
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Phc7006: Islam has a multiplicity of orientations and dimensions that is often underestimated in the Western world. The Shia / Sunni divide is well known, but don't ask ordinary joe ( or the US officials for that matter since they now openly consider Iran responsible for 9/11 , a reasoning that is a monument to ignorance imho ) to make the thinner difference that actually matters ... Still, those following the teachnigs of salafism or wahabism are muslims, even if it is a very extreme vision of that religion, and the masterminds of that wave of terror are to be found amongst them. The foot soldiers, or rather the cannon fodder, are mainly petty criminals and "lost" people, that are vulnerable to these preachers of hatred.
so what - you ask me to learn islam only so i can understand what you say? i've got better things to do i'm not crazy to read some quoran or whatever it's called
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paladin181: I don't like that our border is overrun with illegal immigrants virtually all the time because of the security issues it brings, much the same with bringing in mass amounts of "refugees". There's no time to do any vetting or any checking on them whatsoever. That means the act itself is inherently a security risk. That's all I was saying.
The terrorists have many means to enter a country, and don't need to mix amongst "refugees" ( and for the record I am not "pro-migrant", considering that the requirement to help refugees should be restricted to those actually being theatened by the conflict , that is less than a quarter of the migration wave we face) . They do so because they want to generate a conflict between natives and migrants, and making the migration wave appear as a terrorist threat plays in their game nicely.
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Phc7006: Islam has a multiplicity of orientations and dimensions that is often underestimated in the Western world. The Shia / Sunni divide is well known, but don't ask ordinary joe ( or the US officials for that matter since they now openly consider Iran responsible for 9/11 , a reasoning that is a monument to ignorance imho ) to make the thinner difference that actually matters ... Still, those following the teachnigs of salafism or wahabism are muslims, even if it is a very extreme vision of that religion, and the masterminds of that wave of terror are to be found amongst them. The foot soldiers, or rather the cannon fodder, are mainly petty criminals and "lost" people, that are vulnerable to these preachers of hatred.
The point is, people don't differentiate. They see that the terrorists were Muslims and instantly start to think their upstanding citizen neighbor is plotting to blow up a football stadium because they are proud Muslims. The religious leaning of extremists and murderers isn't that important, but people keep throwing the word Muslim around like it's some kind of identifier. They are brainwashed, weak-minded fools with no conscience or remorse led by strong-willed monsters who wish nothing but hate on others who don't think like they do. There's no religion in that. Killing people who have nothing to do with you when they weren't expecting it? There's no religion in that.

Full disclosure, I'm not a Muslim. But I hate to see others persecuted for their birthright, even here in the US. Freedom of religion unless you have the same religion as mass killing terrorists. Then you're under observation and suspicion by your former friends and neighbors.
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Phc7006: The terrorists have many means to enter a country, and don't need to mix amongst "refugees" ( and for the record I am not "pro-migrant", considering that the requirement to help refugees should be restricted to those actually being theatened by the conflict , that is less than a quarter of the migration wave we face) . They do so because they want to generate a conflict between natives and migrants, and making the migration wave appear as a terrorist threat plays in their game nicely.
I'm not saying that either. I'm saying when you take masses of people like that, you make it EXTREMELY EASY for them to slip in. I agree with you on the migration issues. I don't think that the answer is to stop it entirely, but to have a better process and realistically limit the influx to what you can properly control.
Post edited March 23, 2016 by paladin181
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I was reminded of this image when someone brought up disenfranchisement.
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Gilozard: A lot of the attacks in Western Europe are fueled by people who are left jobless due to entrenched racism.

The attacks in the US by US citizens seem to have mainly been by young unstable people who felt they were being cheated by the system and struggling to get ahead. The anger driving terrorism is economic, not religious.
Quite often that doesn't seem to be the case. E.g. the 2005 London bombers, three of them seemed to be doing fine with their education, were active in cricket and football teams, one was working in a primary school as a learning mentor, etc.

Also, wasn't the guy who was earlier caught for the Paris attacks working in a bar owned by his brother?

Somehow I just don't buy the explanation that these happened due to racism and those people being put down by the "system". Those people just simply got radicalized by their muslim beliefs at some point.
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timppu: Those people just simply got radicalized by their muslim beliefs at some point.
you're blaming religion like blaming a video game because it's violent and can influence players to commit crimes. no matter how violent a game is, you never even slap someone's face for it; or at least i wouldn't. the people who commit crimes they are crazy. and because of this, their religion is crazy too. they're basically proud to be muslim, to be crazy, and instead of seeing how wrong they are, they bask into their madness and let it grow inside their heads
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timppu: Those people just simply got radicalized by their muslim beliefs at some point.
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ciomalau: you're blaming religion like blaming a video game because it's violent and can influence players to commit crimes. no matter how violent a game is, you never even slap someone's face for it; or at least i wouldn't. the people who commit crimes they are crazy. and because of this, their religion is crazy too. they're basically proud to be muslim, to be crazy, and instead of seeing how wrong they are, they bask into their madness and let it grow inside their heads
But videos games didn't cause the Holocaust, the Crusades and many other horrific events. Religion is a deadlier tool then people like you make it out to be. It is the biggest cause of conflict in the world and there will be war where ever Religion runs wild.
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ciomalau: you're blaming religion like blaming a video game because it's violent and can influence players to commit crimes. no matter how violent a game is, you never even slap someone's face for it; or at least i wouldn't. the people who commit crimes they are crazy. and because of this, their religion is crazy too. they're basically proud to be muslim, to be crazy, and instead of seeing how wrong they are, they bask into their madness and let it grow inside their heads
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darthspudius: But videos games didn't cause the Holocaust, the Crusades and many other horrific events. Religion is a deadlier tool then people like you make it out to be. It is the biggest cause of conflict in the world and there will be war where ever Religion runs wild.
i think that if people would destroy all mosques in the western countries, the immigrants would go back to syria or where-ever they came from and problem solved. nobody needs islam anyway
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ciomalau: you're blaming religion like blaming a video game because it's violent and can influence players to commit crimes. no matter how violent a game is, you never even slap someone's face for it; or at least i wouldn't. the people who commit crimes they are crazy. and because of this, their religion is crazy too. they're basically proud to be muslim, to be crazy, and instead of seeing how wrong they are, they bask into their madness and let it grow inside their heads
I wasn't directly blaming the religion, ie "islam turned them into raving lunatics". My thinking more goes like that certain kinds of people are maybe more attracted to certain aspects that islam provides, something that they don¨t find in Christianity, Buddhism or especially atheism. It may be fuel to their darker side, but maybe not the core reason.

Like I've said before, when I think of westerners who have converted to some religion (which is new to them), people who have converted to islam, often seem quite agitated and angry. If I think of people who have converted to e.g. buddhism or christianity, that doesn't seem so profound even if there are basketcases too (I personally think people who become religious are quite often "odd", maybe going through some difficult phase in their lives or even having a trauma...).

Somewhat related, just yesterday I read some article by some guy who formerly was active in some white supremacist skinhead movement (but later grew out of it). At least in his case, he had no anti-anything beliefs (like that he hated dark-skinned people, or jews, or whatever), he was just a frightened kid. When he was introduced to the movement, suddenly he felt powerful: he was not afraid, but people were afraid of him! It made him ecstatic. He felt he fits in.

Since the movement was about white supremacy, he adopted the beliefs and was willing to do gay-bashing, black bashing etc. with his new friends who gave his life a purpose.

Still, even though it could be argued that the movement was merely fuel to him and not the core reason, I guess most still feel such a movement is a negative thing overall.
Post edited March 23, 2016 by timppu
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darthspudius: But videos games didn't cause the Holocaust, the Crusades and many other horrific events. Religion is a deadlier tool then people like you make it out to be. It is the biggest cause of conflict in the world and there will be war where ever Religion runs wild.
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ciomalau: i think that if people would destroy all mosques in the western countries, the immigrants would go back to syria or where-ever they came from and problem solved. nobody needs islam anyway
We don't need Islam but it is religion in general we don't need.
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Phc7006: In can therefore understand AfD for instance, even if I couldn't share their views. Not the David, George and Nigel circus though , because that would be asking very much from me.
I don't think the AfD is any different from David, George, Nigel. That is, it's utterly unclear what the AfD actually stands for. There's two completely different party policy documents by them out there at the moment. The first version very much was a highly neo-liberal one, slashing all unemployment benefit and cutting social security to the bare minimum, with a socially conservative tone (of the "union of man and woman is the core of society" and some US style attitude to gun laws) mixed in.

When confronted with it quite a number of those that voted for them disagreed that that's what they'd actually wanted. Hence, apparently, the newer version of that policy documents that u-turns on some of those things. Which one the actual party line is, is open.
I don’t have anything directly against muslim. I know some are good people who just want to live peacefully. But there believe isn’t peaceful. In their belief we are the enemy. This is something you have to understand. Doesn’t matter if their involved or not. The book they hold values that want us to convert or die. So for me I believe in survival. If I have to choose between a them verse us? I choose us. I choose my family my neighbours my friends my nation. It’s not my fault they’re on the run. Not my fault they aren’t fighting for freedoms where they once lived? Why am I stuck with the burden? Why am I being labeled as a racist? I’m not.

I’ve lived by many muslims and in the years they’ve swarm my area. I’ve had many honour killings. Many girls being mutilated… police tried to hush it up but the community all knows. In schools girls are told to shut up because they’re not support to talk to a man. Spit on, Molested in gyms. Muslims are allowed to practice their religion in schools but catholics and jews and other belief’s aren’t allowed.

Best part is these guys have been here for a few years and not the Syrians trying to enter. Majority of them have not conformed to our way of living. They have no intentions of that. When some of their own do change they have an accident. By the way this is happening in Canada. I’ve seen my fair share of crazy shit.

I don’t have anything against them.. But I don’t want this here. Sorry take it somewhere else. If you want to stay.. change! Modernize your book to a friendlier version and or drop it! Remember guys we’re the enemy whether you like it or not. I choose us.. I choose my family my neighbours my friends my nation. I’m not a racist I just want to survive.
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Gilozard: A lot of the attacks in Western Europe are fueled by people who are left jobless due to entrenched racism. .
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Phc7006: A common belief, far from being verified. Some of the perpretrators of Paris attacks had a job before being radicalised. Then stopped their job, or got fired because they ddin't come to work anymore. Plus it's very easy, too easy, to blame the society for not giving them a situation. I'm not going to start a debate on that, but qualifications, openess to develop new qualifications, flexibility towards colleagues, customers, suppliers, attitude towards others, in particular towards collègues from the other gender play a role in the opportunities you get or not. And the fact that community adopts a communautarist approach to any and everything, always blaming others being racists and always presenting themselves as victims doesn't help. What is true is that this more vulnerable part of the sociery is fertile ground for the recuiters and preachers of hatred to find followers and foot soldiers, just like the lumpenproletariat of the XIXth century was a fertile ground for socialist agitators. But the agitators themselves were not from the proletariat, rather bourgeois looking for a way to power or criminals .
Yeah, obviously the perpetrators chose to be violent criminals. But a lot of their motivations seem to be from dealing with society rejecting them, for whatever values of 'rejecting' they believe in. Often times it seems like they were just kind of troubled from the get go and someone who was good at preying on that found them.
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Gilozard: A lot of the attacks in Western Europe are fueled by people who are left jobless due to entrenched racism.

The attacks in the US by US citizens seem to have mainly been by young unstable people who felt they were being cheated by the system and struggling to get ahead. The anger driving terrorism is economic, not religious.
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timppu: Quite often that doesn't seem to be the case. E.g. the 2005 London bombers, three of them seemed to be doing fine with their education, were active in cricket and football teams, one was working in a primary school as a learning mentor, etc.

Also, wasn't the guy who was earlier caught for the Paris attacks working in a bar owned by his brother?

Somehow I just don't buy the explanation that these happened due to racism and those people being put down by the "system". Those people just simply got radicalized by their muslim beliefs at some point.
Not racism, necessarily. But it is a lot harder for young people to get jobs in developed countries now, and that's especially true of minorities, and that's causing a lot of unrest. Seeing others getting ahead while not being able to yourself - and yeah, over entitlement doubtless plays a part for some - seems to be a common theme running through the attacks.

So that's a major issue that needs to be addressed, because disgruntled young people aren't unique to Islam, there's a never-ending supply of them.
Post edited March 23, 2016 by Gilozard
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RottenRotz: I disagree.I still think US is no1 problem..dont take it personaly,i mean US politics
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vsr: (of [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHgGKl2FVUc]Muammar Gaddafi) and the Murderer of his father.
USA politics in a nutshell.

EDIT: Ugh. She killed son as well. :/
And these are normal people?Leading world force?Its just interests,all crazy
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Wolfehunter: I don’t have anything directly against muslim. I know some are good people who just want to live peacefully. But there believe isn’t peaceful. In their belief we are the enemy. This is something you have to understand.
That is a lie. There are a lot of muslims in Russia and ex-USSR republics. This is a peaceful religion.
But some extremists from Saudi Arabia, Qatar (you can thank them and USA for creating ISIS), distorted it, to fit theirs views. They have some activity in Russia as well, spreading radical Islam. But police and FSB deal with efficiently. Russian Islamic preachers despise them, and warn people about this danger.

Your problem is these extremists, not muslims.
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vsr: (of [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHgGKl2FVUc]Muammar Gaddafi) and the Murderer of his father.
USA politics in a nutshell.

EDIT: Ugh. She killed son as well. :/
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RottenRotz: And these are normal people?Leading world force?Its just interests,all crazy
Yep. Meet next President of USA, you're welcome.
Trump is a red herring.
Post edited March 23, 2016 by vsr