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ZyroMane: I like to joke that Brian Moriarty ruined game difficulty in 1990.
Who? Never heard of him.
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ZyroMane: Mario started that with New Wii, right?
SMB3 was easier than The Lost Levels, though still not that easy. (There's that one star run level in world 7 that I'm not sure if I've ever beaten.)

SMW was easier than SMB3. (Tubular and that one fortress that guards the Back Door are the hardest that game has to offer.)

New SMB (on the DS), I think, was even easier, and is definitely the easiest 2D Mario game up to that point. (Didn't play any later ones.)

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ZyroMane: This all reminds me of the different views on difficulty meme that compares Kojima, Miyazaki, and Kawazu quotes.
The RPG I'm planning on making is most influenced by some of Kawazu's games, out of the 3. (In particular, don't expect levels and experience points; I'm avoiding those two overused mechanics.)

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ZyroMane: I remember how my brother got stuck on some elevator boss. But he also beat Borderlands with the starter gun and got to the final boss in Horizon: Zero Dawn without upgrading weapons.
I remember beating Guadia Quest Saga (sub game of the Japan-only DS game Game Center CX 2) with initial armor (resetting if I were to accidentally equip something stronger); everything except the optional superboss was doable. (Note that I also avoided using stat seeds.)

Then again, this is one game where, under normal circumstances, your defense increases too quickly for the game to remain challenging. (While in a completely different genre, Timespinner also has this issue, and unlike GQS, in Timespinner the only way to prevent your defense from rising too quickly is to intentionally avoid XP, or to play on level cap 1 which makes the early game too hard.)
Post edited February 10, 2024 by dtgreene
It's probably the fact that I'm caught in the middle generation. You see, this is a great time for Gen-Z kids: The Baby Boomers are pretty much all gone, us Older Millennials have put in 20 years, and there is no Union to enforce seniority. Having to deal with kids getting better jobs than me really puts me in a mood.

Transfer that to the games: Most of these "gamer" kids get to do that for a living, while that wasn't a thing when we were growing up.

The world has changed, and I hate it.
Post edited February 11, 2024 by RChu1982
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RChu1982: It's probably the fact that I'm caught in the middle generation. You see, this is a great time for Gen-Z kids: The Baby Boomers are pretty much all gone, us Older Millennials have put in 20 years, and there is no Union to enforce seniority. Having to deal with kids getting better jobs than me really puts me in a mood.

Transfer that to the games: Most of these "gamer" kids get to do that for a living, while that wasn't a thing when we were growing up.

The world has changed, and I hate it.
Honestly, I don't find the notion of a "generation" to be that useful.

(Incidentally, I don't like numbered console generations either. The NES/SMS aren't actually descended from the Atari and contemporaries, and there's some cases that don't fit neatly, like the Game Boy and the Dreamcast.)

Anyway, maybe my next strange theorycrafting might be to work out the best race for getting Power Cast on a Fighter. That might not be the most practical build (after all, assuming no class changing Power Cast is useless for a non-caster), but it might at least be interesting.
So, checked some builds:
* Fighter with Power Cast: Best races are Gnome and Mook, starting with 64 INT (so Power Cast at level 12). If you actually plan to use this build, for some reason, I recommend Mook because of the Giant's Sword. (Keep in mind that Power Cast is useless here.)
* Bishop with high VIT/Iron Skin: Best race is actually Gnome. Start with, I believe, 59 VIT. (Note that, for this purpose, I'm only comparing non-apprentice levels. A Lizardman Bishop may have 70 VIT at the start (which isn't any better for HP at level 1), but can't raise it any further until level 8.)
It's an infamous anecdote involving Roe R Adams III. I feel like it was referenced in Crawford's famous Dragon Speech, but it's been a while. He definitely mentions Moriarty.

Mario has the issue where the A team can't do moderate. MM2, of all things, actually does!!!

I feel like I'd rather play a game from someone who says that quote than the other two. Because, if followed, the game would at least be entertaining if nothing else. The first is not going to be, and second is a shot in the dark. Maybe I could have gotten into Saga if I wasn't expecting FFII.

Baby boomer actually comes from something, and now we have some particularly bad generation delineations. I hate people of my age the most, actually, evil you know and all that. Plus, I'm a government school survivor. Hate is powerful and dangerous, and one shouldn't let it consume them, but, oh well, this isn't the crowd to open that can of worms.
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ZyroMane: Maybe I could have gotten into Saga if I wasn't expecting FFII.
FF2 is an example of "good idea, bad execution". Fortunately, the game designer learned, and his later games have more sensible mechanics, albeit still non-standard. (There's also the issue of Unlimited SaGa doing poorly; that game probably could have used a tutorial. SaGa Frontier 1 and 2, on the other hand, are quite accessible, provided you don't enter Lute's final dungeon too early in SF1, and that you keep a save prior to the point of no return in SF2 (since the final boss is, by far, the hardest mandatory part of the game; that Battle of South Moundtop is technically optional, not to mention that nothing you do elsewhere affects the difficulty of that battle),)

Worth noting that I played the Game Boy SaGas. as well as Secret of Mana (which has a weapon/spell leveling system similar to FF2s), before I played FF2.

Also, it's worth noting that a few older WRPGs have skills improving through use, Wizardry 8 being one of them.
Intelligence is the worst attribute to work on for a non caster (Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Gadgeteer), as Powercast won't help them at all. Piety is second-worst, as it only affects Stamina (which you can get from Strength and Vitality). Vitality is one of those attributes where it's all-or-nothing; You only raise it if you want Iron Skin. You see, high-HP classes, like the Fighter, Lord, and Valkyrie, already have high hit points, and don't really need Vitality. Low-HP classes, like casters, really could use the HPs, but, due to how the formula works, don't benefit much from points spent in Vitality (best to shore up their defenses with buff spells, Bless, Guardian Angel, etc).

Speaking of casters, Battle-Priests and Battle-Bishops would be best with Staves of Doom, as they get the full Strength damage bonus, status effects on enemies, and benefit from extended range (said casters can hit from the center formation, attacking enemies in front of the party, or on the flanks, while suffering no return attacks). With decent Speed, they can easily get 2X2 (2 max swings per attack, 2 attacks per turn).
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RChu1982: Speaking of casters, Battle-Priests and Battle-Bishops would be best with Staves of Doom, as they get the full Strength damage bonus, status effects on enemies, and benefit from extended range (said casters can hit from the center formation, attacking enemies in front of the party, or on the flanks, while suffering no return attacks). With decent Speed, they can easily get 2X2 (2 max swings per attack, 2 attacks per turn).
But that weapon precludes the use of a shield, and shields can be quite useful, particularly since some of them have useful special effects (like boosting Speed or Dexterity, or even a boost to Stealth or Locks & Traps (20 L&T on non-L&T class? Well, here you go.).).

Also, getting decent speed on these builds is a bit of a stretch, especially if you also want Power Cast. You very well might end up with only 35 base speed, which comes out to 55 with a shield and boots.

(In practice, a dwarven battle priest tends to get a second attack in the late teens. An Int/Spd bishop using a whip tends to get the second attack sooner, despite the character being more of a pure caster build.)

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RChu1982: Intelligence is the worst attribute to work on for a non caster (Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Gadgeteer), as Powercast won't help them at all.
Power Cast may be useless for them, but there's no reason you can't give them that skill for fun. (Similiarly, one could create a fairy fighter-type and give them Axe skill, despite not being able to actually equip any weapon of that type.)
Post edited February 12, 2024 by dtgreene
Since the Bishops are protected in the center formation, there is no need for a Shield. The Rogue, who has a bonus to the Locks and Traps skill (the only one in my party with that skill), is working on it.

I find that a caster only has a few options with melee weapons. Alchemist, Psionics, and Mages really should attack from extended range, as their close range options suck. This leaves Staff of Doom as the dominant weapon.

With Bishops and Priests, they have the Mace and Flail weapon set that the others don't get, but extended range whips aren't that impressive (Cat O' Nine Tails and Vampire Chain), get half the Strength damage bonus, and inflict no status ailments upon the enemy.

It can be argued that these two classes could go Mauler or Diamond Eyes with a Shield (no Dual Weapons skill), but then they would have to be built for front-line combat (failing that, at least flank combat), having to suffer return hits.

With the Battle-Bishop build that I am doing, they get to attack from extended range, suffering no return hits, get the full Strength damage bonus, and inflict status conditions upon the enemy (not bosses, but damage adds up against them).

This allows your Battle-Bishop(s) to still be built as a caster, maxing Strength, Intelligence, Speed, and Senses by level 31 at the latest.

Are you kidding me? Why would anybody max Intelligence "for fun"? Intelligence is one of the most useless stats, by itself, as it does almost nothing directly (you get no HPs, Stamina, SPs, Carry Capacity, Initiative, Chance to Hit, etc). All it does is make a bunch of skills go up faster, and gives Mental resistance above 80.

This is why I dislike Fairies, their equipment restrictions, their need to get special armor, their reduced Carry Capacity, etc. As you tell me, the Infinity Helm overrides their increased SP regeneration, but only for non full-casters (full casters can just, you know, rest, or use Mana Stones or Magic Nectar to restore SPs). The Robes of Rejuvenation override the Fairies' SP regeneration as well?
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RChu1982: Since the Bishops are protected in the center formation, there is no need for a Shield.
If I'm going for Speed on a Bishop, I do want to be able to equip a certain Shield for that +10 Speed bonus. (This is why I prefer whips over staves for pure caster Bishops.)


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RChu1982: With Bishops and Priests, they have the Mace and Flail weapon set that the others don't get, but extended range whips aren't that impressive (Cat O' Nine Tails and Vampire Chain), get half the Strength damage bonus, and inflict no status ailments upon the enemy.
There's that one chain (the one that you spend to get the Vampire Chain; unfortunately there's only one) that has a 5% KO chance.

Also, while whips only get have the Strength bonus, they also get only have the Strength *penalty*, which helps if you have less than 50 Strength (a common configuration for caster Bishops, particularly if Elf or Fairy).

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RChu1982: Intelligence is one of the most useless stats, by itself, as it does almost nothing directly (you get no HPs, Stamina, SPs, Carry Capacity, Initiative, Chance to Hit, etc). All it does is make a bunch of skills go up faster, and gives Mental resistance above 80.
There is a minor component of the to-hit formula that adds up 4 of the attacker's stats, and subtracts those same 4 of the target's stats, and Intelligence is one of those stats. So, Intelligence actually does have a tiny effect on chance to hit or dodge.

Also, "a bunch of skills" is a lot (might even be the majority; I'd have to check), with the Fighter's primary skill, Close Combat, being one of them.
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RChu1982: The Robes of Rejuvenation override the Fairies' SP regeneration as well?
Yes, +1 per round is better than what a Fairy would get, as last as far as I can tell. Even then, it would still be more than the natural regen difference between a Fairy and a non-Fairy non-Lizardman character.
Post edited February 13, 2024 by dtgreene
One more build to investigate: Str/Spd on a Felpurr Priest.
Unfortunately, Felpurr Priest doesn't get Snake Speed until level 13, which is later than I'd like and no better than a Felpurr Bishop (aside from faster leveling, which does matter at this point).

Power Strike doesn't show up until level 20.

Side note: If you prioritize Senses over Strength for this build, The Mauler ends up not being viable; you can't even equip it until level 15/16 or so, and it takes 6/7 more levels for the weapon to not be forcibly unequipped every time the character gets hexed.
(I wish this topic would get more attention, as I find it more interesting than the other currently active topics.)

Strange idea: Lizardmen are weak against Mental, right?

Well, how about a Lizardman Psionic?

From what I remember, mental effects aren't too much of an issue early game, so what you *could* do is start the character as a Bishop, then change to Psionic at the first opportunity. Going Bishop->Psionic is easy; you only need 5 extra points of Senses, and you keep the spells you learned as a Bsihop. In particular, for a Lizardman, I believe you can change from Bishop to Psionic at level 9, which seems to be a suitable point. Now you can wield the Staff of Doom with no fear of getting insane/turncoated and hitting allies with it.

(There are, of course, drawbacks, including slower SP regen. Well, and the fact that starting as a Lizardman Bishop gives you -40 bonus points to spend.)
No. Power-leveling, as I'm doing, requires that you use some common sense, and not create weird builds, especially apprentice builds.
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RChu1982: No. Power-leveling, as I'm doing, requires that you use some common sense, and not create weird builds, especially apprentice builds.
If you're power-leveling, like you are, the fact that you're using an apprentice build is not really much of an issue.

For example, a Lizardman Bishop can't get Power Cast until level 21 (assuming you don't use the Trynton fountain before level 8; I haven't analyzed that case). Normally, this is too late, but if you reach level 21 even before leaving the Monastery, that isn't such a big deal.

Also, some of these builds may turn out to be surprisingly effective. Many of these builds, for example, can help fill niches that wouldn't otherwise be covered. For instance, if you don't want a full caster or a Samurai, you could mix 3 levels of Bishop into some other build and get access to Enchanted Blade and Missile Shield. Add in a Bard and Gadgeteer, and the rest of the important long duration spells are now covered. (I wouldn't do a Bishop mix on the Bard or Gadgeteer, but there's no reason you couldn't, say, do it on your Valkyrie or Lord.