And why

Some things:

clans: Nosferatu and Malkavians are not advised for a first playthrough. Nosferatu must not be seen by humans, so you have to hide all the time.
Malkavians are insane. You hear strange voices and have bizarre visions. Most importantly, your dialogue options are very strange, so sometimes it is hard to guess which answer means yes or no.
You should play those because they are fun and very different, but ist not the best idea for a first time. All other clans should be fine because they play as normal people with normal dialogue. Ventrue may have a problem to get blood because usually I feed in the sewers.

As written before, melee is good all the time and guns are good later in the game. Persuation is the best social feat. Research is needed to read books that improve your stats. Inspection, haggle and stealth are almost useless.

I'd have to disagree. There is an optimal build, or rather, a list of things to not waste XP on that should be heavily considered when building a character. The game includes a number of NPCs that will give you skill points for free if you meet requirements and haven't gone over, and there's several skill books as well.

It might seem trivial to ignore them as it feels like there's only a few here or there, but ultimately you've passed up on over a hundred free XP worth of skill points.

Just in the vanilla game without any of the whacky plus patches or mods, there's the following teachers:
Brawl 2->3 (Nines) 6xp
Finance 4->5 (Fat Larry) 12xp
Melee 3->4 (Nines) 9xp
Firearms 3->4 (Romero) 9xp
TOTAL XP: 36

Technically, Beckett can also raise your stats a couple of times, but I've found him to be wildly inconsistent and buggy and wouldn't rely on it. Also, if you're a Nosferatu you have access to a clan quest that can give you Computer 5 for free, which is another 15XP.

The real meat is, of course, skill books though. In the pawnshop you start the game in, there's no fewer than five free points.

Stealth 1->2 (Pawnshop) 3xp
Computer 0->2 (Pawnshop)x2 6xp
Firearms 0->2 (Pawnshop)x2 6xp
Brawl 3->4 (Empire Arms) 9xp
Finance 3->4 (Empire Arms) 9xp
Melee 2->3 (Skyline Apartments) 6xp
Dodge 1->2 (Grout's Mansion) 3xp
Security 3->4 (Museum) 9xp
Computer 4->5 (Hollywood) 12xp
Melee 4->5 (Chinatown) 12xp
Dodge 4->5 (Giovanni) 12xp
Firearms 4->5 (Leopold) 12xp
TOTAL XP: 99

So, even if you want to build say a Firearms character, it behooves you to not put any of your precious starting points in Firearms. Simply buy the two books from Trip and get Firearms 2 without wasting any skill points right from the get-go. None of the books or trainers are positioned so late or are for such low amounts that it adds difficulty to the game waiting till that point to acquire. For example, sitting on Brawl 2 and waiting for Nines to raise to a 3? By that point you've only done Santa Monica which has virtually no combat at all. And then you can head immediately to Empire Arms and raise it further to a 4 without having wasted the 12xp.

Note that you don't even have to take all the skillbooks. If you know that you only want to use Melee and have no use for Brawl or Firearms, then avoid putting the minimum XP needed to raise those and skip those trainers and books entirely. But even for melee only you can hose yourself out of 27xp worth of free dots if you don't plan ahead.

Oh, and the overall XP saved is 135 (147 for a Nosferatu.)

I argued against an optimal "first playthrough", not against the existance of optimal/optimised builds. I am assuming a new player is going to play through the whole game for the first time blind without knowing any optimal paths and secrets. You can kludge your way through the game easy enough with almost any build unless you go out of your way not to spend XP on stuff you're actually doing in the game. A first time player would not know of these opportunities and so won't be anticipating and building towards them. Assuming you're just trying to finish the story, you don't need them. You are not endearing yourself to me by suggesting powergaming and exploiting bugs on a first playthrough. I agree with your analysis, but find it wildly inappropriate for this thread. This is why I tell newbies not to read any guides on Fallout 1 and 2 either because those games have been so thoroughly deconstructed veteran players often tend to see them strictly as power gaming equations to optimise, not emergent stories to experience. Fine after exploring every nook and cranny over ten playthroughs, but the first time through should be a journey rather than a scheduling exercise.

Just answer the questions in the character quiz and go with whatever you get.

Contrary to what you will hear, Malkavian and Nosferatu are fine for a first playthrough, so if you get one of those don't worry about it. My first character was a Nosferatu, and I don't regret it at all.

Then stop reading this board where people will try to give you stat neurosis. Just play the game.

And yet that's exactly what you did. You didn't tell him that there are optimal builds but that he should shy away from them as a new player, you stated categorically that there were no optimal builds. You went on to cement that further by claiming you were in no way being facetious.

Backpedal now if you must, but it only marks you as being disingenuous. Which is why I made him aware of them. Rather than outright lie to him like you did so he could be immediately disappointed when he found a skill book the first fifteen seconds into the game, I alerted him to what was available. It's an odd thing for you to make assumptions for another person for. I can't find where he specified that he wanted to accomplish the bare minimum in the most wasteful way possible. It's not a bug, my excitable little friend. It was included in the vanilla version, all patched versions including the official and unofficial. He offers an infinite supply of skillbooks that will raise your stat to a 2. You being personally offended by the notion, while curious, doesn't suddenly make it a bug. I'm sure you feel owed accolades for being a liar because your intentions were benevolent, but you'll find none from me. You would've been better served making him aware that there are optimized builds and suggesting he not pursue them so he could enjoy the game in a purist way that you approve of. He could then choose to do so or ask after them at his leisure.

But you removed his agency in the matter by deceiving him. Complain and moan at me all you like, it doesn't change how things are.

Seriously guys, this game is so easy that discussion of "optimal" is kinda silly. Just role-play it and you'll be fine.

The very first bit from my original post: Nowhere did I say there are no optimal builds, only that there is no perfect way to enjoy a first playthrough. I also claimed that the game is very easy and you don't need to optimise in order to breeze through the main story. There are some side quests that may require high Hacking or Lockpicking, but the main story is almost impossible to screw up. You're right, I don't know how he wants to enjoy the game. I assume he wants to experience it for himself at least the first time through. He didn't specify if he wants to follow a flow chart or if he only need some hints to avoid screwing up his character build. I erred on the side of not wanting a walkthrough and told him not to worry about the build. Well, I can only tell you that I find the idea that this being intentional game design working as intended is ridiculous. The reason it has never been fixed in any patches or mods is because the shops in the game are hardcoded as wesp5 has stated many times on these forums. It is unfixable, or unchangable if you want to argue that it is working as intended. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're talking about. Are you calling me a liar for something I never said, or for omitting powerbuilds in my original post? It is a very strange accusation, and a strong one. I'm at a loss here.

In the end, the original poster seems happy to read that he don't need to worry about optimising his character for a first playthrough, he will make it through even without squeezing the most XP out of all skill books and trainers. He did mark my first post as the solution and I hope it helped him enjoy his first playthrough. It is a rich cRPG, there is plenty to learn over several playthroughs and eventually you will grow into powerbuilding and figuring out the optimal way to do everything you want.

Except that's demonstrably false. There is an optimal first playthrough. Why lie to him about it?

There's a world of difference between "there's no optimal first playthrough" and "there's no real need to optimize your first playthrough." Outside the fact that one is patently false, the second one allowed him to ask follow up questions if he wants to optimize or is concerned of missing out on things. But you misled him and any other future reader who stumbles on the thread.

You erred on the side of withholding information to force him to play the way you enjoy. Again, you didn't have to reveal a single thing about optimized play other than its existence and the assurance its unnecessary. But the deliberate subterfuge? How can you not see where that line was crossed?

I don't recall him saying that, but you might be right. Still, I fail to see how a vendor carrying an unlimited supply of two specific skill books that cap out at rank 2 and aren't free is some hellish exploit. Especially since that means you ultimately only saved a whopping total of 6xp.


A liar for claiming there was no optimized build. Even qualifying it with "first playthrough" leaves the implication that there isn't one. As though an optimized playthrough exists independent for subsequent builds (somehow) but is immaterial for the first.

My response wasn't specifically for him, given enough time has passed that he'd probably beaten the game a couple of times. It was for future readers who happen across the post here and read about how there aren't optimized builds and take that misinformation into the game only to realize VERY SHORTLY after playing that they were deceived. Granted, you can fall back to your "I specified first playthrough" semantics, but just the same. Some people won't mind finding half a dozen redundant and now useless skill books pertinent to what they wanted to play at the outset of the game, some would.

As responsible players being solicited for our opinions, I think the best course is to make them aware of their options, not try and deceive them into playing the way we personally enjoyed best.

Wow. This is one of the most bizarre exchanges I've ever had on this forum. I've made my case, I'm done with this thread, lest I repeat myself.

All stores in the game work this way. Items get duplicated when you sell them to any vendor. Trip's is the most obvious one as he already has two books in his inventory when you first visit him. You can sell any other books you find to any store/vendor and buy them as many times as you need. It is a glitch. No way this is intentional game design, it makes no sense.

Oh ffs. That is three times in a row you fail to comprehend what I actually wrote. I never claimed there is no way to optimise your character build. The only way to do that as a first time player is to not really play the game at all and just follow a walkthrough, which I didn't interpret the minimalist original post to be asking for.

Alright, one last time with more words than I initially thought necessary: There is no "optimal" first playthrough, assuming you're going in blind. You won't see all the game's content in just one playthrough, so don't worry while you're still learning. Experiment. Experience the game for the very first time, you're lucky to have such a rich game to discover.

I mean it, I'm done with this thread. I've said all I want to say. Or, apparently, I've "forced" every new player to play it "my" way by ignoring the number crunching. I'm so decietful that way, obscuring the glorious XP hoarding and exploit opportunities from people who may give a shit about that stuff on their first playthrough. WOW!

Disagree from experience: The game always tells me to play Nossie and I did that on my first playthrough - was quite frustrating and I never was able to beat Ming with that original Nossie. I almost moved on because of that.

I think that is a challenge for almost any first character. Metagaming makes it easy.

Given the dozen or so "I'm done with this thread, but let me continue posting" remarks, I can tell this is just bait to keep the whole thing rolling, but what the heck. I think we've both made our points clearly. You feel as though you weren't dishonest, I think you were.

I think someone inquiring after advice for their build is looking for something constructive like say- there are a few free points the game gives you the first five minutes out of the tutorial. Or perhaps recommendations on not wholly neglecting physical stats, as that's a first time player mistake where you have a social or intellectual Kindred that gets destroyed in the third act of the game where it becomes one long combat scene. You told him to START investing in Chinatown. Do you not remember the levels immediately preceding Chinatown? I'm guessing your recommendation for those levels are... sprint wildly past all the enemies, and save often?

I mean, let's not forget this whole back and forth is because I had the audacity to say that I disagreed about no optimal first playthrough and then you picked apart my post snootily and attacked my advice as though someone offering a different perspective was something to be defensive about. I probably should've known then to jump ship on the discussion with you. C'est la vie, live and learn.

Anyhow, for the OP or a future reader... there is a lot of good advice you can get for a first playthrough. Not just keeping a weather eye out for skill books and trainers to save precious XP that you can't get back if its misspent, but also on builds. Sufyan would have you believe that any build can handle the game, and while I guess it's technically true, without some foreknowledge of how the game's tone and play shifts, most of the end of your game is going to be you frustratedly reloading from deaths.

So feel free to ask for advice. There's lots more tips and information that could benefit a new player that doesn't spoil a single line of plot for the game.