Got as far as about a third of the way through the game ( I think.)

Beautiful graphics (for the time) and huge, epic complex game world.

But the reason I could never bring myself to complete it:

1) RAEGANTS. What a drag. This is like FF8's magic system but even worse - why couldn't they just rely on MP, like
in Ultima Underworld?

2) The combat system is simplistic and boring. You can't directly control your teammates, and they don't cast spells. In multi-party RPGs I prefer to have the option to have a mix of fighters, mages, archers, etc. In this game only the Avatar casts magic.
I'm more used to the Might and Magic, Eye of the beholder, Betrayal at Krondor, and Dark Sun party mechanics, which are all contemporaries and have better tactical depth.

3) The interface stinks. Transfering/finding items between party members takes forever. Granted, it was similar in Ultima Underworld but less tedious due only 1 character, and far fewer items (shorter games.)

4) The stat/skill system is simplistic and boring. again, compare to might and magic,dark sun, EOB, Betrayal at Krondor and ultima underworld.

5) "name" "job" "bye". Quite simplistic a contrast to the dialog options of ultima underworld and dark sun. In Betrayal at krondor you click keyword buttons, but your characters then engage in a fuill text dialog.


So. what was I missing?

Ultima VI was a better game at least in terms of interface. With VII they went all-in on having a mouse-driven interface, which made some things tedious or simplistic. Then again for people coming from VI or earlier Ultima games, VII presented the familiar world of Britannia more colorfully and easy to interact with in a point-and-click way. I think the appeal of VII is more about exploring the world of Britannia and less about technically engaging gameplay; YMMV.

I did try with my UltimaHacks patches to take out some the tedium derived from the mouse-driven nature of VII's interface (shameless plug, https://github.com/JohnGlassmyer/UltimaHacks).

Well the game failed to hook me back then, so there's no feeling of nostalgia to draw me back in and no custom made mod is gonna change that.

I only really post on this forum because of the two Ultima Underworld games.

The only reason I tried so hard in the first place to like U7, was because of the vast number of characters and references to it in UW2.

To be honest, I found the game rather lacking (and consider it to be one of the most overrated games out there, along with Final Fantasy 7 and Baldur's Gate 1 & 2), though, for me, my point of comparison is the earlier Ultima games (I haven't played either UW game). As for your points:

1. I have had this problem with the series since Ultima 4 (though it was actually worse in 4 and 5 since you had to mix your spells in advance). This is such a shame because of the fact that, otherwise, MP regen would have solved the issue that casters have in other RPG-like games of the time. (Ultima 7's MP regen mechanic is interesting; every hour you recover half the MP you used, rounded up; this seems like it would be a good way to encourage magic use; note that Exult messed this part of the game up, and uses a different MP regen mechanic which I don't like as much.) This mechanic also ruins certain spells, like lower level attack spells and Ultima 4's Open spell (the spell was useful in U3, but is not in U4). One of the reasons I occasionally like to replay Ultima 3 is that there's MP regen (though slower than I would like) but no reagents. (One compromise would be to remove all reagents except mandrake root, and make all spells that don't require it require no reagents at all.)

2. This is a step-down from earlier in the series. They took the passable tactical turn-based combat from the earlier games (which worked best in U6), and ruined it by making it real-time. Also, even U6 had a problem where the main character was the only good spell caster; she would get 2x INT as MP, while everyone else playable who could cast spells only got 0.5x INT; Mariah doesn't join (she was a powerful spellcaster in U4 and U5), and Jaana can't cast spells in U6 (no explanation provided).

3. This is one aspect where the series regressed. U6's inventory is cleaner, though it is still something you have to navigate and worry about, and you did have separate character inventories, and there were weight limits. U4's and U5's inventory is a lot nicer; you don't have separate character inventories, and there's no limit on how much you can carry (aside from the 99 limit on each item). U4 and earlier didn't have ammo management (U5 has it, but it's pointless when the best ranged weapon has no ammo limits).

One interesting point of comparison: JRPGs went in the opposite direction with respect to inventory. In the Final Fantasy series, FF3 got rid of individual inventories, and FF5 got rid of inventory space limits. In the Dragon Quest series, you still have individual inventories (except in DQ9), but DQ6 and later give you a bag that can store an infinite about of items and is always with you.

Also, you neglected to mention the issue of feeding your characters, which in U7 is especially painful because it forces you to interact with the horrible inventory, a huge step down from the "buy food and forget about it" approach of U4-U6. I'd almost prefer U1's approach to U7's ;while the food issue can be frustrating early on in U1 (food runs out quickly and 0 food = instant game over), but once you can afford a decent amout of food, the mechanic gets out of the way, which it doesn't in U7.

4. It's still more interesting than in Ultima 3-6 (though you tend to focus on them more in U3 in particular, as most of the playing time is spent farming money and using it to increase your stats).

5. Ultima 4-6 (excluding console ports, of course) have a system where you type in what you want to say. For whatever reason, Ultima 7 got rid of that aspect, probably because of their misguided decision to go to a purely mouse driven interface.

So, in conclusion, you weren't missing anything.

Well, that makes a lot of sense. The Underworld games are really of a different sort of game. I wouldn't really consider them to be part of the Ultima series. I think they were mostly developed by a different team of people, and I vaguely remember reading that the original Underworld was significantly into development before someone decided that it ought to be made into an "Ultima" game.

If you want more Underworld-like games, then I'd suggest playing System Shock 1 and 2, Thief, and Deus Ex, not Ultima VII (or other Ultimas, for that matter). But probably you're well aware of those already.

I've never really been a fan of the graphics in Ultima 7. The perspective always looked weird to me... Agreed. I beat Ultima 7 without using magic. It simply was more hassle than it was worth Combat really was not the strong point of Ultima 7 either. And the expansion just trivialized it to the point where combat was just a slight waste of time (if you beat the expansion you get a super powerful sword, and your stats gets maxed out, with strength going over max) And finding the right key.... Just beat the expansion, now the skill system won't matter :P This was another one of those things that I just ended up not bothering with when I played it. At least you did not have to try to guess what words the NPC would react to, due to a text parser :P I did not mind the dialogue system. It was a basic keyword system, learn about something, and you could go and ask relevant NPCs about it





The main draw of Ultima 7 is absolutely the setting, and to some degree the story. I did enjoy exploring the world, finding secrets and weird NPCs, and I did find the story to be interesting enough to keep me motivated to stick with it. Serpent Isle does have a better main story though

The problem is that, like in most RPGs (especially of that time), magic is more interesting to use than physical attacks; it also felt like magic was the only thing you could do to really influence the course of the battle, so making it more trouble than it's worth is a *really* bad game design decision.

Serpent Isle is even worse, as you don't even have your spellbook until later on (though at least, once you get it, you can get an item in the Silver Seed expansion that eliminates the need for reagents).

Of course, I could mention what I've read about Ultima Online's handling of this, where shopkeepers have limited amounts of reagents, and if somebody else bought out the merchant's supply, you would not be able to buy any until the merchant restocks. Basically, this mechanic, whice is already quite annoying in a single player game, becomes particularly obnoxious in an MMO with a shared world. (Then again, Ultima Online was one of the first games of its type, so it had many other issues, like issues with player killing and griefers, for example.) (Note that I haven't played Ultima Online; I've only read a little about it, including the time that someone killed Lord British and was later banned.)

Ah the mixed blessing of Ultima Online as its peak. A lot of this has been fixed/changed either intentionally or unintentionally (while the game is almost surprisingly still running and I still play once in a while, it is naturally nowhere remotely as popular as it once was. The reagent problem is unintentionally solved in most places just due to how empty everything is these days).

They added vendors that sold silly amounts of reagents in Ultima Online after a little while, so at that point reagents were more of an economic burden than anything else. (then they added lower reagent cost equipment...). Early on vendors running out of reagents was a bit of a hassle, but soon it became almost a non-issue.

UO had a different problem to Ultima 7. Where in Ultima 7 magic was cumbersome and annoying to just use, in UO it was not the using but the preparation that was a hassle.