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The Witcher 2What's with the QTE hate?(87 posts)(87 posts)
(87 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted June 03, 2011
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vpmichael__: I have the reaction time of a half dead porpoise writhing languidly on the beach whilst dogs and seaguls torment me in my final hours.
Best description of reaction time ever.
Posted June 03, 2011
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vindik8or: QTEs are not gameplay, it is a glorified remote control for a DVD player, the only buttons being "Play the next 10 seconds of footage" and "Too bad you have to watch this junk again".

A proper game has rules and tools. A good game allows a player to strategise how they will use their tools to overcome obstacles and to adapt their strategy to changing conditions. QTEs are stimulus and response at the most basic level. You could train a dog to beat a QTE. There is no leeway for strategising, there are no tools. It is lazy designers distracting hamfisted, nitwitted fratboys with how much money they spent on animators.
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curlyhairedboy: from what i've seen in the witcher 2, apart from the fistfights, QTEs are really only used to add interaction to what would normally be a continuous cutscene. there's no gameplay during those parts anyway, because without the QTEs you'd simply be sitting back and watching.

now i agree that it's annoying when a game has QTEs everywhere - spam attack at an enemy, get close and press the button that appears above his head is a popular iteration - but it seems to me that CDPR has tried hard to preserve player control as much as they can.
See my above post: if your game has long-arse boring cutscenes, you should consider hanging up your GAME DESIGNER hat and definitely not taking up film making, because you're likely to make long-arse boring films too.
Posted June 03, 2011
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vindik8or: QTEs are not gameplay, it is a glorified remote control for a DVD player, the only buttons being "Play the next 10 seconds of footage" and "Too bad you have to watch this junk again".
Good thing TW2 is full of gameplay and the QTE sequences are short and simple and don't in any way detract from the former. They serve a very specific purpose and are used sparingly - to involve you in a cutscene and retain the interactivity of the game while providing something of a more cinematic sequence - I can think of the two exmaples that stick out, both during boss fughts and both very simple - the Kayran, after chopping off 3 of its tentacles swings a fourth on you and you jump on a stab it multiple times, all accomplished by following the on-screen prompts. The second example is during the fight with the dragon, when you stab it in the neck and backflip it in to the ground - in both instances there is no loss of gameplay, because we're being shown a sequence of events that could not be accomplished using ordinary gameplay mechanics - there is no jump button, for instance, so how do we end up on either of the two monsters in the first place?

QTE's allow us to perform actions that are otherwise not capable during normal gameplay, they are merely a way of keeping us involved.

Now, I would like to see a fist fighting system outside of the QTE minigame - it wold be nice to be able to fight guards with your fights in the same way you fight them with swords - ie; fast and agile.
Posted June 03, 2011
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curlyhairedboy: from what i've seen in the witcher 2, apart from the fistfights, QTEs are really only used to add interaction to what would normally be a continuous cutscene. there's no gameplay during those parts anyway, because without the QTEs you'd simply be sitting back and watching.

now i agree that it's annoying when a game has QTEs everywhere - spam attack at an enemy, get close and press the button that appears above his head is a popular iteration - but it seems to me that CDPR has tried hard to preserve player control as much as they can.
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vindik8or: See my above post: if your game has long-arse boring cutscenes, you should consider hanging up your GAME DESIGNER hat and definitely not taking up film making, because you're likely to make long-arse boring films too.
i think the strategy is to minimize the time the player spends not controlling the game. a game can have the most exciting cutscenes in the world, but even if the player is at the edge of his seat, he's not directing the action, he's watching it.
Posted June 03, 2011
I think the QTE's are largely pointless, why not just use fist fighting as if you didn't have a sword equipped? Like in the LaValette dungeon, you can break free and you have to punch the guards to death, I don't see why this couldn't be used in the fist fighting tournaments, just plain lazy if you ask me.

I don't really care about the other QTE's in the boss fights.
Posted June 03, 2011
QTE's are bad game design. They shouldn't have included them, at least not in the boss fights. There is no strategy involved whatsoever, just a lame Simon says routine.
Post edited June 03, 2011 by scampywiak
Posted June 03, 2011
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scampywiak: QTE's are bad game design. They shouldn't have included them, at least not in the boss fights. There is no strategy involved whatsoever, just a lame Simon says routine.
Exactly!

+1
Posted June 03, 2011
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Adam192: I can think of the two exmaples that stick out, both during boss fughts and both very simple - the Kayran, after chopping off 3 of its tentacles swings a fourth on you and you jump on a stab it multiple times, all accomplished by following the on-screen prompts.
This is exactly the kind of situation where I really dislike the QTEs. The kayren fight is mandatory. You must do it to advance the story. The QTE is, as mentioned above, nothing more than a Dragon's Lair mechanic which forces you to go through it again and again trial and erroring your way until you find the exact combination of button clicks and timing to get through*. The problem is this means there's only one way to get through this fight.

it shouldn't be this way for an important battle like this. That's poor design IMO, since the player should be able to approach that fight in more than one fashion in order to overcome it. You should be able to use your witcher build's various talents, skills, and equipment to get through this. Not some scripted sequence of button mashes.

I don't mind the QTEs for side diversions like fighting or arm wrestling, but to have it applied to something plot-specific like the kayren fight is bad design.

*This does not apply the the 'elite' gamers that have can get through this type of thing on the first try. But for the regular Joe Gamer like me and many others, it's frustrating to have to do it over and over just to figure out what the devs are forcing you to do in order to get through this fight, rather than figuring out a way that utilizes your character build/abilities.
Posted June 03, 2011
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vindik8or: QTEs are not gameplay, it is a glorified remote control for a DVD player, the only buttons being "Play the next 10 seconds of footage" and "Too bad you have to watch this junk again".
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Adam192: Good thing TW2 is full of gameplay and the QTE sequences are short and simple and don't in any way detract from the former. They serve a very specific purpose and are used sparingly - to involve you in a cutscene and retain the interactivity of the game while providing something of a more cinematic sequence - I can think of the two exmaples that stick out, both during boss fughts and both very simple - the Kayran, after chopping off 3 of its tentacles swings a fourth on you and you jump on a stab it multiple times, all accomplished by following the on-screen prompts. The second example is during the fight with the dragon, when you stab it in the neck and backflip it in to the ground - in both instances there is no loss of gameplay, because we're being shown a sequence of events that could not be accomplished using ordinary gameplay mechanics - there is no jump button, for instance, so how do we end up on either of the two monsters in the first place?

QTE's allow us to perform actions that are otherwise not capable during normal gameplay, they are merely a way of keeping us involved.

Now, I would like to see a fist fighting system outside of the QTE minigame - it wold be nice to be able to fight guards with your fights in the same way you fight them with swords - ie; fast and agile.
Way to swallow the marketing line there, champ. If they have to be shortened, simplified, made not to detract (and they still fucken do), given an 'enable difficult QTEs' option, etc. why have them at all? The inability of the creators to allow varied and exciting versions of a limited set of actions demonstrates their own lack of skill at the task, not some failure of the medium.

QTEs don't allow you to 'do' anything because you are not using an established range of controls for specific actions to get a certain outcome. You are simply following an onscreen prompt to activate a predetermined, prerendered result with no input as to the outcome.

To put on my own amateur designer's hat for a moment, there is a way I would have used existing controls to make the fight with the dragon not a QTE at the end. To start with there is a way to 'jump', either going to the predetermined points and interacting, or rolling. You could have the player go to a spot and time their interaction to leap over to the dragon. To add strategy to the scenario, you could make it so that just loitering at the spot is dangerous (flying debris, something?) you have to either dodge around and only reach the point at the right moment, or use your signs to clear the area. You could have some impetus for the player to use signs and take up time where they could miss the window of opportunity and perhaps have to keep fighting the dragon to make this opportunity arise again (rather than just LOL YOU DIDN'T PRESS IN TIME YOU DEAD). Once on the dragon you could use a new variation of old controls where you have to perhaps use your movement or rolls to keep your balance, or your attacks in certain spots to cling on, or your signs to stop her from doing certain actions, etc.

It would require more work on the designer's part beyond just writing an action script for someone to animate and figuring out which button that now has no relationship to its previously established action to make the Pavlolvian Dog on the other end of the game press, but dammit, people should have some pride in the job that I want to take from them. I may be alone in this (and as people by more and more into this crap, it seems to confirm my feeling) but I like to PLAY my games. Not sit around watching endless cutscenes, and definitely not watching endless cutscenes for little flashing icons to pop up.
Posted June 03, 2011
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scampywiak: QTE's are bad game design. They shouldn't have included them, at least not in the boss fights. There is no strategy involved whatsoever, just a lame Simon says routine.
but it seems whenever strategy COULD be put in, then normal, full gameplay was enabled.

take, for example, the end of the kayran fight. take out the QTEs and you've got a cutscene where geralt swings on a tentacle for 15 seconds. there's no strategy that could possibly take place, because it's scripted.

now, immediately afterwards, CDPR gives complete control back to the player. it's the player who uses roll to dodge the kayran's rocks, it's the player who figures out how to run up the fallen stonework and get in close for the kill. a lazier set of developers would have just kept that sequence entirely in QTEs.
Posted June 03, 2011
The Kayren fight is pretty cool, up until the point it's scripted and with QTE's. There could have been a longer and more strategic battle involved, but they wanted to go with something cinematic, so we get Geralt playing ride em' cowboy. From a game design standpoint, I think this was a mistake. It's relatively small hiccup in a game with great combat though, so I won't belabor it.
Posted June 03, 2011
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scampywiak: QTE's are bad game design. They shouldn't have included them, at least not in the boss fights. There is no strategy involved whatsoever, just a lame Simon says routine.
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curlyhairedboy: but it seems whenever strategy COULD be put in, then normal, full gameplay was enabled.

take, for example, the end of the kayran fight. take out the QTEs and you've got a cutscene where geralt swings on a tentacle for 15 seconds. there's no strategy that could possibly take place, because it's scripted.

now, immediately afterwards, CDPR gives complete control back to the player. it's the player who uses roll to dodge the kayran's rocks, it's the player who figures out how to run up the fallen stonework and get in close for the kill. a lazier set of developers would have just kept that sequence entirely in QTEs.
Kindly read the post I just made about how they're lazy rather than it being simply impossible for them to make it properly playable. The fact that minus the QTEs the Kayran fight is just chopping three tentacles is even more of an indictment on their own lack of imagination.
Posted June 03, 2011
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curlyhairedboy: but it seems whenever strategy COULD be put in, then normal, full gameplay was enabled.

take, for example, the end of the kayran fight. take out the QTEs and you've got a cutscene where geralt swings on a tentacle for 15 seconds. there's no strategy that could possibly take place, because it's scripted.

now, immediately afterwards, CDPR gives complete control back to the player. it's the player who uses roll to dodge the kayran's rocks, it's the player who figures out how to run up the fallen stonework and get in close for the kill. a lazier set of developers would have just kept that sequence entirely in QTEs.
They could have designed that battle completely differently so you actually could use your skills/abilities/gear to overcome the kayren and had no QTEs there whatsoever. There's no reason you needed to have the 'jump on for a tentacle ride' cutscene/QTE. That wasn't necessary. As for the end of it, going up the ramp didn't need to have the cutscene occur right away. Why couldn't the player have actually tossed a bomb into the beast's maw to blow it up? Why the cutscene there?
Posted June 03, 2011
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scampywiak: QTE's are bad game design. They shouldn't have included them, at least not in the boss fights. There is no strategy involved whatsoever, just a lame Simon says routine.
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curlyhairedboy: but it seems whenever strategy COULD be put in, then normal, full gameplay was enabled.

take, for example, the end of the kayran fight. take out the QTEs and you've got a cutscene where geralt swings on a tentacle for 15 seconds. there's no strategy that could possibly take place, because it's scripted.
There was a whole 5-6 pages topic about that. Kayran "fight" was badly designed and is the worst part of the game with or without QTEs. Period.
Posted June 03, 2011
I thought that the timed responeses were really underused.

The really jarring thing about the QTE's were that there were like, 20 of them in the prologue, and maybe three or four per chapter onward. It was uneven, and weird.

Instead of a "true" QTE where all you do is press a button, I think they should have done more like the dragon one in the prologue, where your camera is changed. This creates an interesting change of pace, but still leaves control to the player
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This is my favourite topic
Community
The Witcher 2What's with the QTE hate?(87 posts)(87 posts)
(87 posts)