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I purchased all of Burne's scrolls but there are a number of them that Spugnoir can't copy, meaning it doesn't even show up as an option to copy. Is this a bug or does old Spuggy have a school specialization that restricts him from another school? If it's a school specialization, is there a way to find out which school he's specialized in?
Post edited September 16, 2016 by dfvx990mq321pl
I suspect those scrolls are considered as cleric or druid scrolls by the game. Which scrolls don't work exactly ?
Post edited September 16, 2016 by kmonster
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kmonster: I suspect those scrolls are considered as cleric or druid scrolls by the game. Which scrolls don't work exactly ?
They are invisibility, greater invisibility, and resist energy. Actually, I don't think it's due to a prohibited school because they appear as scrolls he can cast, just not copy. If it were a prohibited school, the rules wouldn't allow him to cast it at all even as a scroll. Perhaps they were cast as divine spells, but it seems unlikely since the only divine way to cast invisibility is through the Trickery domain (also in terms of roleplaying, why would a wizard sell divine scrolls?).
I remember in my game my mage couldn't learn all scrolls he bought there either. Maybe it's just a bug.
What you are seeing would certainly make sense if Spugnoir was a specialist. Because of his background, he is likely a diviner or necromancer. I can't remember if he is or not. If you hire Pischella can she not copy those scrolls either? You could alternatively give Spugnoir some other scroll from the Alteration or Illusion schools and see if he can copy it or not: if so, that rules out specialization, if not it is probably due to specialization. Another trick would be to see if he can memorize any extra spells than the max his level and int normally allows, which would indicate he is a specialist in that school.

There are rules about max # of spells learnable based on int. Maybe it is that?

Also in 1e there was a rule about possible failure to know each spell, rolled at each level-up, regardless if the spell had been "found" yet or not. Don't know if that rule carried ovr into 3.5e or not. If it did, you might check to see if Spugnoir still can't copy those scrolls after he levels the next time.

Also, in either versions of DnD, you could neither read nor copy a scroll until you were of sufficient level to cast the spell. With enough use magic item and read magic skill in ToEE that rule didn't apply, but maybe in some newer update patch they changed this.

Sounds to me that specialist is more likely though.

EDIT: some wiki sources seem to indicate Spugnoir is an enchantment specialist. You might try and confirm that by seeing if he can memorize an extra sleep/charm spell.
Post edited September 18, 2016 by Dreamteam67
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Dreamteam67: What you are seeing would certainly make sense if Spugnoir was a specialist. Because of his background, he is likely a diviner or necromancer. I can't remember if he is or not. If you hire Pischella can she not copy those scrolls either? You could alternatively give Spugnoir some other scroll from the Alteration or Illusion schools and see if he can copy it or not: if so, that rules out specialization, if not it is probably due to specialization. Another trick would be to see if he can memorize any extra spells than the max his level and int normally allows, which would indicate he is a specialist in that school.

There are rules about max # of spells learnable based on int. Maybe it is that?

Also in 1e there was a rule about possible failure to know each spell, rolled at each level-up, regardless if the spell had been "found" yet or not. Don't know if that rule carried ovr into 3.5e or not. If it did, you might check to see if Spugnoir still can't copy those scrolls after he levels the next time.

Also, in either versions of DnD, you could neither read nor copy a scroll until you were of sufficient level to cast the spell. With enough use magic item and read magic skill in ToEE that rule didn't apply, but maybe in some newer update patch they changed this.

Sounds to me that specialist is more likely though.

EDIT: some wiki sources seem to indicate Spugnoir is an enchantment specialist. You might try and confirm that by seeing if he can memorize an extra sleep/charm spell.
I don't know who Pischella is, haven't encountered her yet. Spugnoir is the only wizard in my party so I can't test it with other characters.

Also, I didn't notice that Spugnoir already knew invisibility from before. However he doesn't know greater invisibility. It can't be a school prohibition then if he knows invisibility since they're of the same school. Also, Spugnoir also knows other spells of abjuration (which is the school for resist energy), such as shield.

It's also not a divine scroll because I tried using it and there weren't any UMD rolls in the roll history. I think it's a bug.
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dfvx990mq321pl: Also, I didn't notice that Spugnoir already knew invisibility from before. However he doesn't know greater invisibility. It can't be a school prohibition then if he knows invisibility since they're of the same school. Also, Spugnoir also knows other spells of abjuration (which is the school for resist energy), such as shield.
Maybe he is a specialist mage, but for some reason already knows spells from schools that are forbidden?

(In other words, maybe his character doesn't actually conform to the written rules.)

Also, if you have failed to learn a spell since the last time you increased the character's Spellcraft, the rules say you can't try again until you increase that skill at level up. (Does ToEE actually implement that rule?)
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dfvx990mq321pl: Also, I didn't notice that Spugnoir already knew invisibility from before. However he doesn't know greater invisibility. It can't be a school prohibition then if he knows invisibility since they're of the same school. Also, Spugnoir also knows other spells of abjuration (which is the school for resist energy), such as shield.
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dtgreene: Maybe he is a specialist mage, but for some reason already knows spells from schools that are forbidden?

(In other words, maybe his character doesn't actually conform to the written rules.)

Also, if you have failed to learn a spell since the last time you increased the character's Spellcraft, the rules say you can't try again until you increase that skill at level up. (Does ToEE actually implement that rule?)
Regardless, it's a bug either way. Either he should know how to copy those spells, or he should not have the other spells already known. It's okay, I don't really need those spells, but if I wanted to I could always add it to his spell list through the console.

And yes, TOEE does implement the failed copy rule. I tried copying a scroll of stinking cloud and failed, and it won't let me copy it anymore. It still appears as an option to copy but when I try, it says invalid action. And unfortunately Spugnoir has leveled about 3 times since that happened and he has yet to put any skill points into spellcraft. I don't think he ever will.
Well, I'm not sure what is going on then, although it sounds like it could be something to do with the finer points of the rules about learning new spells.

Pishella is in Burn/Rufus's tower. She hangs around on the 1st floor during the day, and goes upstairs at night. She is a Wiz1/Sorc1 with pretty decent stats, and you can hire her for 50gp. The advantage of a Wiz/Sorc is to level her as a sorcerer, but since she has a wizard's spellbook too she can copy the spells she can't learn as a sorc into her spellbook and scribe those spells as scrolls if she ever wants to cast them. Just make sure to max out her Use Magic Item and Spellcraft skills on level up to do this, and buy the 4 scholar kits found in Homlett, since scholar kits help increase the copy success chance and their effects stack. You might try hiring her and play around a bit to see if she can copy those scrolls.

Also, if you have a CG party, you can hire the wizard Burne and try with him as well.
Post edited September 20, 2016 by Dreamteam67