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Is there a faster way to get 50 centime (or a free map) than the "sell beard" glitch?
This question / problem has been solved by blueskirt42image
I thought about stealing the tip jar from the street musician but I remembered that's something you can do in Wages of War, not Trial By Fire.

But I remembered another trick: If you are playing the remake as a thief, you could always, right at the start of the game, go straight to bed, sleep 'til evening and leave the inn, as you are leaving, Shameen will give you a spare key for the inn front door, you then go back to bed 'til morning and play the game as normal. That spare key Shameen gives you can be sold to the money changer (in the remake only) for 30 dinars, your honor will drop to 1 however (big deal...) and you will need to pick the lock to the inn after midnight, but that's a whole lot of money for free I guess. Before you can fence the key you must have exchanged your coin purse from gold to dinar and you must have made the thief sign to Dinarzad. Other than that, you can always cross your fingers on one random encounter with a bandit or a lone jackalman right outside the town gate, but that seems totally unreliable at best.

Alternatively, depending on your communication skill, you could try experimenting with the bargain feature to squeeze an additional 50 centimes between your various transactions. But I suspect you are already doing that.

Also, just a little thing I just found out, in the original version of the game, you can leave the inn simply by walking south, no need to be lined up in front of the door, going south anywhere in the screen will work. I dunno if it's like this for other stores and locations in the game. That may help you shave some seconds if it is the case.
Post edited December 18, 2016 by blueskirt42
The formula to calculate Communication is 3/4 Intelligence + 1/4 Luck.

In the VGA version, this formula is calculated after you create your character, meaning if you dump some point in Intelligence as you create your character, you will improve your Communication skill, which will allow you to bargain better prices from merchants and maybe chip enough on item prices to acquire fifty loose centimes to acquire a map. That method might be useful for a Wizard because that class starts with higher Intelligence than a Fighter or Thief. I haven't tested it recently, but I seem to recall that in the VGA version, you can bargain with every merchant, on every purchase, regardless of your Communication skill. The higher your Communication skill is however, the cheaper you will be able to purchase items. In the VGA version it is also possible to bargain when you fence items with Dinarzad, to get more money out of the loot you sell her.

In the EGA version of Quest For Glory II however, Communication works differently. For a starter, Communication is calculated before you create your character, meaning no matter how many point you dump in Intelligence during character creation, you will not be able improve your starting Communication skill beyond 42 for a Fighter, 65 for a Wizard and 52 for a Thief. The only way to improve your starting Communication skill is to import a character from Quest For Glory I that would have more Intelligence and Luck than the starting characters you get when you use the "Start New Hero" button. Communication also work differently it seems. I tried to bargain the Force Bolt spell from Keapon and he flat out refused to give me a discount, although he did give me a discount five minutes earlier when I bargained with him with a cheated character with maxed out Communication skill. It seems like in the EGA version, every item you can purchase has a bargain threshold, if you bargain for an item and your Communication skill meet that item bargain threshold, the merchant will gladly give you a 50% discount on the item, but if you do not meet that threshold, you will have to pay full price for the item. Which works differently from the VGA version where a starting character with low Communication skill could still bargain 10% or 20% off every purchase right from the get go.

Also, I tested Keapon's shop, the adventurer guild, the apothecary, the money changer and the weapon shop and it seems like the inn is the only building where you do not need to be perfectly lined up with the door to leave the building, all you need to do is run to the bottom of the screen and the character will leave the inn. That being said, there seems to be some sort of finickiness to it. It does not always work, and it seems to only work when you run, (it doesn't work when you walk or when you sneak.) But considering the number of time you leave the inn in that game, I suppose you could shave off a couple of seconds during a full playthrough by not having to run horizontally or diagonally to reach the door. I have not tried doing this in the seedy bar in Raseir. And it is not possible to do in the VGA version.

Also, regarding that thing where you could maybe fence the inn key to Dinarzad. Here's the problem: Shameen only gives you the key when you leave the inn at night, but if you go back to bed right away, and sleep 'til morning, and then run to the money changer, she won't be awake yet, the doors will be closed and she won't be there, but that can be fixed if you sleep 'til morning, and then sleep an additional two hours in your bedroom.

Alternatively, you could modify your route so that you change your money, fence the key and steal the bellows at the start of the game, during the first evening:
You will start the game,
Go to bed, sleep 'til evening,
Try to go outside, receive the key, go outside,
Run all the way to the money changer,
Change money, make thief sign, fence the key for 30 Dinars (depending on your Communication skill, you may be able to get more dinars)
Run all the way to the Weapon shop,
Cast Fetch on the bellows,
Run all the way back to the inn,
Get inside (if you do all that fast enough, it won't be midnight yet and the door should still be unlocked)
Go to bed, sleep 'til morning,
Go outside, buy the map,

The rest of the route would proceed normally I guess, except you won't need to go outside the city ever, I think, and everything that happens at night will be out of the way, I think.
Post edited December 18, 2016 by blueskirt42
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blueskirt42: But I remembered another trick: If you are playing the remake as a thief, you could always, right at the start of the game, go straight to bed, sleep 'til evening and leave the inn, as you are leaving, Shameen will give you a spare key for the inn front door, you then go back to bed 'til morning and play the game as normal. That spare key Shameen gives you can be sold to the money changer (in the remake only) for 30 dinars, your honor will drop to 1 however (big deal...) and you will need to pick the lock to the inn after midnight, but that's a whole lot of money for free I guess. Before you can fence the key you must have exchanged your coin purse from gold to dinar and you must have made the thief sign to Dinarzad. Other than that, you can always cross your fingers on one random encounter with a bandit or a lone jackalman right outside the town gate, but that seems totally unreliable at best.
While a good trick in the VGA version (and in a Marathon% run this would definitely be faster than my desert treck for the beard, THANK YOU!!) it is unfortunately not in the EGA version, as you mentioned. :/ It seems as though the fight outside might be the fastest.
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blueskirt42: Alternatively, depending on your communication skill, you could try experimenting with the bargain feature to squeeze an additional 50 centimes between your various transactions. But I suspect you are already doing that.
Yeah, unfortunately, that won't work in the EGA version. I am literally looking for ONLY 50 centimes right from the start. I don't need to visit the money changer at all. I am currently in the prep stages of a QFG2EGA tool-assisted run, and the magic shop is just wasted time now. I can get ALL of the items necessary to beat the game for literally ZERO right from the start of the game by talking about the specific elementals to their merchants.

Lamp = 0 if you "tell about fire elemental"
Earth = 0 if you "get earth" from the plant seller (faster than "foolers earth" by quite a few frames)
Bag = 0 if you "tell about earth elemental" to the bag seller
Incense = 0 if you bargain for it ~65 communication
Map = 50 centimes after bargaining, EVEN with 200 communication.

The thief starts with 5 Daggers (one for Ad Avis' brazier), and with 5 into magic and the rest into throwing you shouldn't need levitate or the rope with the Air Elemental. You can cast Flame Dart on each of the guards (one-shots 'em) at the end rather than needing Dazzle.

In other words, 50 centime is the barrier for not needing the Magic Shop at all.
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blueskirt42: Also, just a little thing I just found out, in the original version of the game, you can leave the inn simply by walking south, no need to be lined up in front of the door, going south anywhere in the screen will work. I dunno if it's like this for other stores and locations in the game. That may help you shave some seconds if it is the case.
This is true. I knew about this one, though. :D Unfortunately, it doesn't work in the magic shop or the apothecary. The inn seems to be the only place.
Post edited December 19, 2016 by mrprmiller
In the case of a tool assisted run, luck manipulation in order to provoke an encounter with a bandit or a jackalman as early as possible seems like your best bet here.
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blueskirt42: In the case of a tool assisted run, luck manipulation in order to provoke an encounter with a bandit or a jackalman as early as possible seems like your best bet here.
I'll leave this open for a little while longer, but it's probably like you (and I) suspected; it's either 'sell beard' or a quick kill on a brigand or something like it.

The question is whether it's faster to head out of town and go through a battle or dealing with Keapon's un-TAS-friendly dialog and animation frames. I suspect the answer is Keapon.

But pointing out the Key selling to me for the VGA is a HUGE time advantage for the money seller. :D I'm excited for that possibility in the Marathon%. It might be time for a new run there. :)
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blueskirt42: In the case of a tool assisted run, luck manipulation in order to provoke an encounter with a bandit or a jackalman as early as possible seems like your best bet here.
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mrprmiller: I'll leave this open for a little while longer, but it's probably like you (and I) suspected; it's either 'sell beard' or a quick kill on a brigand or something like it.

The question is whether it's faster to head out of town and go through a battle or dealing with Keapon's un-TAS-friendly dialog and animation frames. I suspect the answer is Keapon.

But pointing out the Key selling to me for the VGA is a HUGE time advantage for the money seller. :D I'm excited for that possibility in the Marathon%. It might be time for a new run there. :)
Just a quick question, is there anything you need money for in the marathon% run that you do not need in the EGA TAS run? Because I'm fairly sure you can talk merchants into giving you free items in the remake too. Or does marathon% run involve more pills to survive and refill mana because your stats are lower?
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blueskirt42: Just a quick question, is there anything you need money for in the marathon% run that you do not need in the EGA TAS run? Because I'm fairly sure you can talk merchants into giving you free items in the remake too. Or does marathon% run involve more pills to survive and refill mana because your stats are lower?
Yes. There are pills needs (health and mana), and buying spells from Keapon (Dazzle, Trigger, Levitate, Force Bolt). BUT, the key selling really is helpful for those.

The route I used at RPG Limit Break 2016 consists of getting the beard and then selling the beard. That involves a quick jaunt into the desert and back with no Saurus (not a big deal), and then using the beard to get the starting items and collecting the rewards from Rakeesh and Omar on the appropriate nights. You can watch the QFG2 portion here; I queued up the start of it: https://youtu.be/GAbGKVH4fHY?t=15m20s -> the background voices are Corey and Lori Cole (it's still a big fanboy moment for me). :D

If I get the key, I'll head out at night on Day 1, run through town (with no interruptions from merchants) to the money changer to get my extra 2 dinars (an import glitch from QFG1VGA leaves you with 3 gold), sell the key and get back in quickly before they lock the door to sleep to day 2 (running back to the map merchant is required anyway, so this is normal). I can then immediately buy the map and then begin to warp around to get the items I need starting on Day 2. I'll have an extra 15 Dinar, also, making bartering not as necessary.

The big thing to get for free is the Lamp (15 Dinar, 10 if you barter, 0 when the city needs saving). But you can't map-warp when the Fire Elemental is there, so this wastes some time because you have to run into the hall and then warp to the lamp merchant. Having the additional 15 Dinar saves more time, because I can buy the lamp outright and not have to backtrack for the freebie. The cloth bag is cheap; the dirt is free; the burning powder is free...

It'll probably save 2 (maybe more) minutes or so off the marathon time. :)
Post edited December 21, 2016 by mrprmiller
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mrprmiller: It'll probably save 2 (maybe more) minutes or so off the marathon time. :)
Wow, that's a lot! I thought you were only going to save time on the desert trek but it seems like you'll be saving time on a lot more tiny places because of that.
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mrprmiller: If I get the key, I'll head out at night on Day 1, run through town (with no interruptions from merchants) to the money changer to get my extra 2 dinars (an import glitch from QFG1VGA leaves you with 3 gold), sell the key and get back in quickly before they lock the door to sleep to day 2 (running back to the map merchant is required anyway, so this is normal). I can then immediately buy the map and then begin to warp around to get the items I need starting on Day 2. I'll have an extra 15 Dinar, also, making bartering not as necessary.
I am not sure whether it would be faster to make a detour on foot to grab the bellows during the first night, or to sleep 'til evening a second time and warp there and back to grab it at a later point in the run, but it is hard to judge from the marathon video because in the video, Shameen stops you from going outside to gives you the key while in the new run he would obviously not do that because it would be your second trip outside.
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mrprmiller: The route I used at RPG Limit Break 2016 consists of getting the beard and then selling the beard. That involves a quick jaunt into the desert and back with no Saurus (not a big deal), and then using the beard to get the starting items and collecting the rewards from Rakeesh and Omar on the appropriate nights. You can watch the QFG2 portion here; I queued up the start of it: https://youtu.be/GAbGKVH4fHY?t=15m20s -> the background voices are Corey and Lori Cole (it's still a big fanboy moment for me). :D
Yeah, I rewatched that a second time last month to get me pumped into diving back into Quest for Glory IV to finish it with the Wizard and Paladin, so I can then enjoy your speedruns of the fourth game. Also, I think we're doing this wrong. I mean, if Corey and Lori comment another of your marathon, they'll get less and less screen time due to the improvements, and that's just not right!

I'm crossing my fingers my friends will one day watch you speedrun through the series in one of them Games Done Quick event, I can't wait to watch the TAS runs, and Heroine's Quest too when you'll run the game.

One last thing about the key trick, in the AGDI forums post where the trick is pointed out, one of the devs mentioned selling the key disqualify you from becoming a paladin, and you can also give the key back to Shameen before departing to Raseir to receive a tiny boost to your honor.
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blueskirt42: Wow, that's a lot! I thought you were only going to save time on the desert trek but it seems like you'll be saving time on a lot more tiny places because of that.
Yup! That's what happens with the ripple effect; you start with one change and it cascades, and there are times when the whole route needs to be re-thought.
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blueskirt42: I am not sure whether it would be faster to make a detour on foot to grab the bellows during the first night, or to sleep 'til evening a second time and warp there and back to grab it at a later point in the run, but it is hard to judge from the marathon video because in the video.
Easily warp. After getting the Fire Elemental, instead of warping immediately back to the inn, I warp to grab the bellows and THEN to the inn. :) No unnecessary trips for this hero. :D
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blueskirt42: Also, I think we're doing this wrong. I mean, if Corey and Lori comment another of your marathon, they'll get less and less screen time due to the improvements, and that's just not right!
HAH! Totally valid!
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blueskirt42: I'm crossing my fingers my friends will one day watch you speedrun through the series in one of them Games Done Quick event, I can't wait to watch the TAS runs, and Heroine's Quest too when you'll run the game.
I may need some help with the routing for Heroine's Quest; the thief has some options that I wasn't aware of... and I just need to sit down and complete it a couple of times, memorize some puzzles and optimize the route.
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blueskirt42: One last thing about the key trick, in the AGDI forums post where the trick is pointed out, one of the devs mentioned selling the key disqualify you from becoming a paladin, and you can also give the key back to Shameen before departing to Raseir to receive a tiny boost to your honor.
THAT explains them waking you up and getting one last chance to talk to them before you move on to Raseir. It's a perfect chance to give the key back. Neato! If it weren't for those pesky secret Paladin Points, that might help the 100% route.
Huh - what options does the Heroine's Quest thief have that you weren't aware of? I'm a little curious myself :D
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Zachski: Huh - what options does the Heroine's Quest thief have that you weren't aware of? I'm a little curious myself :D
Someone mentioned (I forget who and where; might have been you :D) that the Thief was able to bypass some of the vouching requirements when getting the towns people to vouch for you. That was where I was stuck in the routing for the Fighter route.
Post edited December 27, 2016 by mrprmiller
Well, for reference, the idea of selling the key for dinars was a great one... unfortunately, due to an unforeseen glitch, it doesn't work. :/ The unforeseen glitch is that Dinarzad wants to see 30 Dinar in your inventory before she is willing to buy the key from you. This pretty much "soft-locks" the game. I have quotes around "soft-locks" because you can click and move around, but you cannot actually use the top bar at all.

Not sure why this is, and there does not seem to be a workaround for this problem. :/ It looks like a Dervish rush is a necessity.