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I'm on my first real playthrough of PF:KM (starting on Challenging cause that's just how I... roll... ha ha?)

ANWAYS.

I'm using the Neoseeker PF:KM "Feyspeaker Shifter" Guide as my main roadmap and have been pretty much lockstep with it as I roll into Level 4 (albeit with a bit more balanced attributes):

Human Druid/Monk:
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 18

(I can't post a link to the Neoseeker guide here since the forum won't allow it)

I've been following the guide above (pretty much identical to InEffect's guide from GOG.com) but would like to deviate and do 6-8 levels of Scaled Fist (instead of dipping into Fighter as the guide recommends).

pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki ... Feyspeaker

pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki ...Scaled_Fist

In an nutshell, what I'll be trading is a Fighter's Trip, Greater Trip, and Fury's Fall for a Leg Sweep Style Strike that activates Trip automatically (as opposed to a separate action) on a "Flurry of Blows" attack and is instead bonused off of my CHA (as opposed to DEX)... this and a slew of Ki Powers, AC +3, Improved Movement and a 1d10 Unarmed Strike... but I will be losing 2-4 levels on my pet leopard (factoring in Boon Companion) since I'm no longer taking Feyspeaker to 17 as per the guide.

I'll also only be able to take Wild Shape 4/day (as opposed to 6/day) and will give up Heroism, Greater as a Feyspeaker Spell:

pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki... Heroism,_Greater

SO NOW my questions:

How does Leg Sweep compare against Trip and do these work at all when I'm in my "Wild Shape" animal form?

What is the difference between a level 16, 18, and 20 pet leopard?

Is 4/day Wild Shape "enough"?

What else am I missing???

I'm currently just levelling my MC to 4 (just completed the Sycamore Grove quest) and have a ways to go before this decision fork but I figured I'd ask in advance just in case there are any major pitfalls I'm not aware of.

Any advice/insight would be much appreciated!!!
Post edited February 07, 2022 by monikersupreme
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I've been soloing Beneath the Stolen Lands a bit lately, and I did use a Monk 1/Druid 19 build (though I only actually reached Druid 18 before the encounters suddenly went from easy to unreasonable).

Wild Shape 4/day is plenty. The effect lasts hours per level, so unless you somehow go more than 12 hours without resting, you're not going to have an issue. The only catch is that you may not be able to change equipment as often, as you can't access your equipment while wild shaped. (You also can't access your inventory with a wild shaped character, so you'll need a companion who doesn't polymorph to do so, though you can at least loot enemies and chests.) With the Natural Spell feat, those are really the only things you can't do while wild shaped.

Some other things:
* Flurry of Blows does not work while wild shaped. I don't know what else fails to work (though the Monk's AC bonus works, as do the Crane Style feats).
* The monk's movement bonus is an enhancement bonus; hence, it does not stack with Longstrider and its greater version. (I haven't explicitly tested this, but that's how I interpret the rules as written.) Longstrider and its greater version are both hours/level in duration.
* If you like trips, there's the spell "Aspect of the Wolf" which allows you to trip as a swift action, but it's only 1 minute/level duration. In BtSL, it's enough to clear a level, but can feel a little tight.
* You also miss out on Heal by not going to at least level 13. Heal is a very powerful healing spell, the second most powerful in the game, so you might want to have it available. (On the other hand, a Cleric companion can cover this spell and Mass Heal nicely, and I hear that, in the main game, you can buy scrolls of these spells (you can't in BtSL).) Note that Blessing of the Salamander works nicely for out-of-combat healing and is available to druids; it's a spell I don't see mentioned much, but I've used it as my primary form of healing, bringing out Heal only in emergencies or for condition removal.
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dtgreene: I've been soloing Beneath the Stolen Lands a bit lately, and I did use a Monk 1/Druid 19 build (though I only actually reached Druid 18 before the encounters suddenly went from easy to unreasonable).

Wild Shape 4/day is plenty. The effect lasts hours per level, so unless you somehow go more than 12 hours without resting, you're not going to have an issue. The only catch is that you may not be able to change equipment as often, as you can't access your equipment while wild shaped. (You also can't access your inventory with a wild shaped character, so you'll need a companion who doesn't polymorph to do so, though you can at least loot enemies and chests.) With the Natural Spell feat, those are really the only things you can't do while wild shaped.

Some other things:
* Flurry of Blows does not work while wild shaped. I don't know what else fails to work (though the Monk's AC bonus works, as do the Crane Style feats).
* The monk's movement bonus is an enhancement bonus; hence, it does not stack with Longstrider and its greater version. (I haven't explicitly tested this, but that's how I interpret the rules as written.) Longstrider and its greater version are both hours/level in duration.
* If you like trips, there's the spell "Aspect of the Wolf" which allows you to trip as a swift action, but it's only 1 minute/level duration. In BtSL, it's enough to clear a level, but can feel a little tight.
* You also miss out on Heal by not going to at least level 13. Heal is a very powerful healing spell, the second most powerful in the game, so you might want to have it available. (On the other hand, a Cleric companion can cover this spell and Mass Heal nicely, and I hear that, in the main game, you can buy scrolls of these spells (you can't in BtSL).) Note that Blessing of the Salamander works nicely for out-of-combat healing and is available to druids; it's a spell I don't see mentioned much, but I've used it as my primary form of healing, bringing out Heal only in emergencies or for condition removal.
Thanks much for your response!!

Yeah, after some reading I think if I try this I'll only take Scaled Fist to 5 and level Feyspeaker to 15. I think this will effectively cap my pet level at 15 as well. I'm kinda wondering if, for this particular build, it might have been better to choose a domain over a pet - I'll keep this in mind if I decide to respec.

How exactly does Scaled Fist benefit from high CHA?

One mod I stumbled across while researching this is "Call of the Wild" and specifically, the Feral Combat Training feat - this may allow Flurry of Blows to execute while Wild Shaped...

"Feral Combat does not work with certain wildshapes:
Feral combat only works for primary hand weapon, i.e. bite for wolves, smilodon, giant flytrap and dragons, claw for leopard, bear and hodag, gore for mastodon, slam for mandragora, shambling mound and elementals."

Useful?

I'm a bit hesitant though - I don't know how far this mod strays over the line from expansion to cheat - I've read on a couple forums that "Call of the Wild" adds in features from the PnP version (which I'm okay with) but beyond QoL mods I'm a bit hesitant to install anything that just makes me more powerful (that doesn't at least have a basis in the PnP game).
Post edited February 10, 2022 by monikersupreme
avatar
dtgreene: I've been soloing Beneath the Stolen Lands a bit lately, and I did use a Monk 1/Druid 19 build (though I only actually reached Druid 18 before the encounters suddenly went from easy to unreasonable).

Wild Shape 4/day is plenty. The effect lasts hours per level, so unless you somehow go more than 12 hours without resting, you're not going to have an issue. The only catch is that you may not be able to change equipment as often, as you can't access your equipment while wild shaped. (You also can't access your inventory with a wild shaped character, so you'll need a companion who doesn't polymorph to do so, though you can at least loot enemies and chests.) With the Natural Spell feat, those are really the only things you can't do while wild shaped.

Some other things:
* Flurry of Blows does not work while wild shaped. I don't know what else fails to work (though the Monk's AC bonus works, as do the Crane Style feats).
* The monk's movement bonus is an enhancement bonus; hence, it does not stack with Longstrider and its greater version. (I haven't explicitly tested this, but that's how I interpret the rules as written.) Longstrider and its greater version are both hours/level in duration.
* If you like trips, there's the spell "Aspect of the Wolf" which allows you to trip as a swift action, but it's only 1 minute/level duration. In BtSL, it's enough to clear a level, but can feel a little tight.
* You also miss out on Heal by not going to at least level 13. Heal is a very powerful healing spell, the second most powerful in the game, so you might want to have it available. (On the other hand, a Cleric companion can cover this spell and Mass Heal nicely, and I hear that, in the main game, you can buy scrolls of these spells (you can't in BtSL).) Note that Blessing of the Salamander works nicely for out-of-combat healing and is available to druids; it's a spell I don't see mentioned much, but I've used it as my primary form of healing, bringing out Heal only in emergencies or for condition removal.
avatar
monikersupreme: Thanks much for your response!!

Yeah, after some reading I think if I try this I'll only take Scaled Fist to 5 and level Feyspeaker to 15. I think this will effectively cap my pet level at 15 as well. I'm kinda wondering if, for this particular build, it might have been better to choose a domain over a pet - I'll keep this in mind if I decide to respec.

How exactly does Scaled Fist benefit from high CHA?

One mod I stumbled across while researching this is "Call of the Wild" and specifically, the Feral Combat Training feat - this may allow Flurry of Blows to execute while Wild Shaped...

"Feral Combat does not work with certain wildshapes:
Feral combat only works for primary hand weapon, i.e. bite for wolves, smilodon, giant flytrap and dragons, claw for leopard, bear and hodag, gore for mastodon, slam for mandragora, shambling mound and elementals."

Useful?

I'm a bit hesitant though - I don't know how far this mod strays over the line from expansion to cheat - I've read on a couple forums that "Call of the Wild" adds in features from the PnP version (which I'm okay with) but beyond QoL mods I'm a bit hesitant to install anything that just makes me more powerful (that doesn't at least have a basis in the PnP game).
Boon Companion would allow you to treat your level as 19 for animal companion purposes.

Scaled Fist gets to add their Charisma bonus to AC, and uses Charisma for things like the size of their ki pool.

The Call of the Wild mod, to my understanding, adds a lot of features based off the table top games to this game, including many new classes, many of which are also featured in the base game of Wrath of the Righteous. For example, you might be able to take a dip into Oracle to add Cha to AC again (albeit in place of Dexterity); in WotR you use the Nature mystery to do this, but CotW may have other options that aren't in WotR. (Also, I don't know whether that Cha bonus stacks with the Scaled Fist's.) In any case, the mod is there for those players who find the existing options too limiting and want to try some other classes and abilities. (I have not tried this mod myself.)

(I don't know whether CotW changes any of the enemies or other dangers to account for the new abilities the player has access to.)
avatar
monikersupreme: Thanks much for your response!!

Yeah, after some reading I think if I try this I'll only take Scaled Fist to 5 and level Feyspeaker to 15. I think this will effectively cap my pet level at 15 as well. I'm kinda wondering if, for this particular build, it might have been better to choose a domain over a pet - I'll keep this in mind if I decide to respec.

How exactly does Scaled Fist benefit from high CHA?

One mod I stumbled across while researching this is "Call of the Wild" and specifically, the Feral Combat Training feat - this may allow Flurry of Blows to execute while Wild Shaped...

"Feral Combat does not work with certain wildshapes:
Feral combat only works for primary hand weapon, i.e. bite for wolves, smilodon, giant flytrap and dragons, claw for leopard, bear and hodag, gore for mastodon, slam for mandragora, shambling mound and elementals."

Useful?

I'm a bit hesitant though - I don't know how far this mod strays over the line from expansion to cheat - I've read on a couple forums that "Call of the Wild" adds in features from the PnP version (which I'm okay with) but beyond QoL mods I'm a bit hesitant to install anything that just makes me more powerful (that doesn't at least have a basis in the PnP game).
avatar
dtgreene: Boon Companion would allow you to treat your level as 19 for animal companion purposes.

Scaled Fist gets to add their Charisma bonus to AC, and uses Charisma for things like the size of their ki pool.

The Call of the Wild mod, to my understanding, adds a lot of features based off the table top games to this game, including many new classes, many of which are also featured in the base game of Wrath of the Righteous. For example, you might be able to take a dip into Oracle to add Cha to AC again (albeit in place of Dexterity); in WotR you use the Nature mystery to do this, but CotW may have other options that aren't in WotR. (Also, I don't know whether that Cha bonus stacks with the Scaled Fist's.) In any case, the mod is there for those players who find the existing options too limiting and want to try some other classes and abilities. (I have not tried this mod myself.)

(I don't know whether CotW changes any of the enemies or other dangers to account for the new abilities the player has access to.)
Thanks again for the input!!

Are you sure about Boon Companion giving a flat +4 level boost?

My understanding was that, under normal progression, animal companion leveling is handicapped by class progression; Boon Companion removes this handicap, however, the pet still cannot level beyond that of it's companion class...

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Animal_Companions

One lingering stubborn question I have is if/how Scaled Fist Style Strikes will apply in Wild Shape (assuming I've taken Feral Combat Training as provided by the Call of the Wild mod)?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/70949/monks-natural-and-unarmed-attacks-and-feral-combat-training

Seems to answer the question partially with regards to Flurry of Blows but doesn't specifically speak to Style Strikes.

I have found a few resources that seem to indicate that, if I take the prerequisite weapon focus feats (i.e. Claw or Bite) that correspond to the primary attack for the form then I may be able to augment my natural attacks in this manner...

Any clue?
Post edited February 15, 2022 by monikersupreme
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monikersupreme: Are you sure about Boon Companion giving a flat +4 level boost?

My understanding was that, under normal progression, animal companion leveling is handicapped by class progression; Boon Companion removes this handicap, however, the pet still cannot level beyond that of it's companion class...

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Animal_Companions
I think you misunderstand how Boon Companion works.

There are two different levels in play here:
1. Your total levels in classes that grant an animal companion. (For Druid 15 (with animal companion)/Monk 5, this would be 15.)
2. The level of the animal companion. This level is derived from your total levels in the class that grants the companion.

So, in this case, since your druid level is 15 (and it's the only class you have that grants the animal companion), your animal companion's level will be 12 according to the table in the SRD.

Now, as for Boon Companion:
* It does not directly raise the animal companion's level.
* Rather, it raises your effective class level (or rather, sum of class levels in classes that grant an animal companion) by 4. This typically results in an increase of 3 levels for the animal companion.
* The limit is that it can't raise your effective class level beyond your character level. In other words, a single class druid won't benefit from this feat (unless the druid has the Animal domain instead of an animal companion, and gets an animal companion that way at level - 3).

So, in the case of Druid 15/Monk 5 with Boon Companion, the companion will be what a level 19 druid would get, which would put the animal companion at level 15 (as opposed to 16 that you'd get as a single class druid).

Edit: Closing a parenthesis.
Post edited February 15, 2022 by dtgreene
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monikersupreme: Are you sure about Boon Companion giving a flat +4 level boost?

My understanding was that, under normal progression, animal companion leveling is handicapped by class progression; Boon Companion removes this handicap, however, the pet still cannot level beyond that of it's companion class...

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Animal_Companions
avatar
dtgreene: I think you misunderstand how Boon Companion works.

There are two different levels in play here:
1. Your total levels in classes that grant an animal companion. (For Druid 15 (with animal companion)/Monk 5, this would be 15.)
2. The level of the animal companion. This level is derived from your total levels in the class that grants the companion.

So, in this case, since your druid level is 15 (and it's the only class you have that grants the animal companion), your animal companion's level will be 12 according to the table in the SRD.

Now, as for Boon Companion:
* It does not directly raise the animal companion's level.
* Rather, it raises your effective class level (or rather, sum of class levels in classes that grant an animal companion) by 4. This typically results in an increase of 3 levels for the animal companion.
* The limit is that it can't raise your effective class level beyond your character level. In other words, a single class druid won't benefit from this feat (unless the druid has the Animal domain instead of an animal companion, and gets an animal companion that way at level - 3).

So, in the case of Druid 15/Monk 5 with Boon Companion, the companion will be what a level 19 druid would get, which would put the animal companion at level 15 (as opposed to 16 that you'd get as a single class druid).

Edit: Closing a parenthesis.
Apologies, I realize that I totally mis-read your previous reply... I mistakenly thought you were referring to the animal companion level directly and not relative to that of my MC ("allow you to treat your level as 19 for animal companion purposes") ...

I think I get it now. I'd assumed that Boon Companion simply removed the leveling handicap for pets and allowed them to stay in sync with the MC. I see now also that your pat maxes out at 16 regardless.

I've got the CotW mod installed now so I'll be interested to see if Feral Combat Training + Weapon Focus Claw (or Bite) allow Monk Style Strikes carry over when in Wild Shape. I'm guessing not but I haven't found anything that explicitly says this doesn't work... yet.

Edit: I came across a post detailing "Gestalt Characters" and thought this might be a faster route to figure out how well my Scaled Fist / Feyspeaker combo plays... I'm hesitant though since the mod I would use basically allows you to level multiple classes (more than just two if you want) simultaneously and up until now I've been pretty disciplined about cheats...

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderkingmaker/mods/96

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

How commonly are Gestalt Characters used in PnP?
Post edited February 16, 2022 by monikersupreme