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I've been playing MotB for a while and am digging the story, but I've run into a small problem; the game is hard as balls, and my limited understanding of 3.5 is starting to make itself felt with how often I am getting pounded into the dirt. Can anyone offer me some advice on how I should be approaching combat in this game (i.e. what spells/tactics are helpful)? Also, I'm not entirely sure my build is terribly well done; ordinarily I wouldn't mind so much but for the high level of difficulty. If anyone could give me some feedback on my build as well, I'd deeply appreciate it :)

Human

Rogue 10/Swashbuckler 8/Duelist 2

Stats (rolled then edited in via Debug, 1 extra stat point granted as Human racial bonus):
Str 11
Dex 18 (15 + 3)
Con 14 (13 + 1)
Int 18 (16 + 2)
Wis 12
Cha 15

Elected Feats:
Able Learner
Tale Teller
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Feint
Improved Parry
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Spring Attack
Two Weapon Fighting

Class Feats:
Weapon Finesse
Crippling Strike
Evasion
Grace
Improved Flanking
Improved Reaction
Mobility
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Insightful Strike
Sneak Attack +5d6
Swashbuckler Dodge +1
Trap Sense +3
Trapfinding
Uncanny Dodge

Aiming for:
Epic Precision
Combat Insight
Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
Whirlwind Attack?
Great Intelligence/Dexterity?

EDIT: looks like I can't qualify for Perfect Two Weapon Fighting as it stands; is it worth rearranging things to make that happen, or will I do ok with Greater Two Weapon Fighting?
Post edited June 15, 2014 by Jonesy89
This question / problem has been solved by Jason_the_Iguanaimage
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Jonesy89: I've been playing MotB for a while and am digging the story, but I've run into a small problem; the game is hard as balls, and my limited understanding of 3.5 is starting to make itself felt with how often I am getting pounded into the dirt. Can anyone offer me some advice on how I should be approaching combat in this game (i.e. what spells/tactics are helpful)? Also, I'm not entirely sure my build is terribly well done; ordinarily I wouldn't mind so much but for the high level of difficulty. If anyone could give me some feedback on my build as well, I'd deeply appreciate it :)

Human

Rogue 10/Swashbuckler 8/Duelist 2

Stats (rolled then edited in via Debug, 1 extra stat point granted as Human racial bonus):
Str 11
Dex 18 (15 + 3)
Con 14 (13 + 1)
Int 18 (16 + 2)
Wis 12
Cha 15

Elected Feats:
Able Learner
Tale Teller
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Feint
Improved Parry
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Spring Attack
Two Weapon Fighting

Class Feats:
Weapon Finesse
Crippling Strike
Evasion
Grace
Improved Flanking
Improved Reaction
Mobility
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Insightful Strike
Sneak Attack +5d6
Swashbuckler Dodge +1
Trap Sense +3
Trapfinding
Uncanny Dodge

Aiming for:
Epic Precision
Combat Insight
Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
Whirlwind Attack?
Great Intelligence/Dexterity?
Eh....I have no idea on Rogues but I've done a Two Weapon Fighter, and I gotta say. Raise yer strength a bit more, And Int/Dex helps with a rogues basic skills(Open Lock, Etc), as well as giving skill points.


Personally, with a rogue, I've always said Stealth is Best.
I wouldn't call myself an expert on builds, but here are my two cents:

In my opinon, if you are not planning on playing a single class Swashbuckler then it is not very beneficial to take more than 3 levels in this class, as after receiving Insightful Strike at level 3, you will not get more useful class specific feats until level 17 or so.

For a Swash/Rogue build I personally would have gone for the Invisible Blade PrC for more effective sneak attacks, (by using Feint) plus the IB's Unfettered Defense (INT bonus to AC when not wearing armor) and the Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike work well together, and after you Combat Insight and Epic Precision become available the build should get even better.

Adding points to STR above 10 for this chararcter is useless, imo you should lower CON and WIS to 10 as well, then raise INT above all else - since that is the stat from which this build benefits the most - and I think you can also lower CHA to 10 or 12. You can use Safiya to buff your CON with Bear's Endurance and Stoneskin for damage reduction.

Since we are talking about MotB here, I assume you also want to get as much content story-wise out of the game as possible. I personally only completed MotB once, with a Monk, and that gave me extra dialogue options due to high WIS and Diplomacy, and even on Hardcore Rules difficutly setting I never had any trouble with combat in the game (if anything it became way too easy and boring after a while.)
For an "evil" playthrough, high Bluff is very nice to have for some additional dialogue options, but I don't want to spoil that, better if you find it out for yourself.

Anyway, it is worth it to stick with the game even if you are having difficulties in the beginning, similarly to PS:T it has very tedious and repetitive combat but for that you are rewarded with a thought-provoking story.
Post edited June 15, 2014 by szablev
Without a rebuild, it looks like the best you can manage is epic precision and combat insight. I'd say your best course of action is to focus more on the NPC's. You're given access to an epic Cleric and epic Wizard as companions, and an epic Spirit Shaman is not very far behind those classes in power, either. This is enough spellcasting power to bowl over the entire MotB campaign. Take your time, pause the game, micromanage those casters, and you can proceed to kick ass.
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szablev: I wouldn't call myself an expert on builds, but here are my two cents:

In my opinon, if you are not planning on playing a single class Swashbuckler then it is not very beneficial to take more than 3 levels in this class, as after receiving Insightful Strike at level 3, you will not get more useful class specific feats until level 17 or so.
Thanks for the tip. I only went to level 8 to get both Improved Flanking and Mobility for free, but might need to reexamine that.
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szablev: For a Swash/Rogue build I personally would have gone for the Invisible Blade PrC for more effective sneak attacks, plus Unfettered Defense (INT bonus to AC when not wearing armor) and the Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike work well together, and after you get Combat Insight and Epic Precision it should get even better.
Yeah, I initially wasn't thinking about prestiging until I found out that Duelists had Unfettered Defense. Going to do some more reading up on Invisible Blades after this; hadn't really looked into it all that much before.
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szablev: Adding points to STR above 10 for this chararcter is useless, imo you should lower CON and WIS to 10 as well, then raise INT above all else - since that is the stat from which this build benefits the most - and I think you can also lower CHA to 10 or 12. You can use Safiya to buff your CON with Bear's Endurance and Stoneskin for damage reduction.
I didn't allocate points through the point buy. I rolled 4d6, rerolling 1s and dropping the lowest die per roll, then assigned those as my stats. Good to know about Stoneskin and Bear's Endurance, though (and presumably Fox's Cunning would boost damage from Insightful Strike); hadn't been initially casting BE because I thought that raising CON would only raise max HP and not total HP, should help out a lot.
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szablev: Since we are talking about MotB here, I assume you also want to get as much content story-wise out of the game as possible. I personally only completed MotB once, with a Monk, and that gave me extra dialogue options due to high WIS and Diplomacy, and even on Hardcore Rules difficutly setting I never had any trouble with combat in the game (if anything it became way too easy and boring after a while.)
For an "evil" playthrough, high Bluff is very nice to have for some additional dialogue options, but I don't want to spoil that, better if you find it out for yourself.
Yeah, story is very much what I am interested in; social skills seem to be helping out a lot in that area, and having a high bluff for Feinting has been fairly nice (especially with Epic Precision when I manage to get it). Starting out at True Neutral and seeing where my alignment goes from there, but is there some reason I should pre-set it otherwise?
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szablev: Anyway, it is worth it to stick with the game even if you are having difficulties in the beginning, similarly to PS:T it has very tedious and repetitive combat but for that you are rewarded with a thought-provoking story.
The only reason combat is posing a problem is due to the heightened difficulty; hell, the theater fight routinely resulted in a TPK, and my only victories there were with one of the characters surviving. Given that dead characters also seem to get xp for the battle and regain consciousness afterward, it's not that much of a problem in the long term, but the way that things like Nightwalkers are able to almost instantly wipe out someone can get annoying.

Thanks for the help :)
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Darvin: Without a rebuild, it looks like the best you can manage is epic precision and combat insight. I'd say your best course of action is to focus more on the NPC's. You're given access to an epic Cleric and epic Wizard as companions, and an epic Spirit Shaman is not very far behind those classes in power, either. This is enough spellcasting power to bowl over the entire MotB campaign. Take your time, pause the game, micromanage those casters, and you can proceed to kick ass.
I'm fairly early on in the game at this point (just found Gann and the Dove), so starting over is very much an option. As for the casters... I think part of my problem is the sheer amount of spells that they have access to makes managing them a little overwhelming, since I know very little about which ones are worth keeping in their memory, which ones are situational, and which ones aren't even worth bothering with. Can you give me any pointers on how to handle casters?

Again, appreciate the help :)
Post edited June 15, 2014 by Jonesy89
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Jonesy89: snip
Basically most buffs that raise your stats will be useful, and Safiya can extend their duration with the right metamagic feats, so I would definitely have her around for most of the game.

There are no advantages to pre-setting your alignment, although there are some classes which have alignment restrictions, but your build does not include any of those.

That encounter in the theatre is actually rather difficult, (or at least I found it difficult compared to the rest of the game) I think the best way to get through it is to strip away the mage's defenses with a Mordekainen's Disjunction using Safiya and then rush him with your character. The gnolls won't be much of a problem after that.

As for the nightwalkers, make sure that you recruit Gann before you go looking for Kaelyn, and once you have a full party of four, the game will become a lot easier.

You're welcome, hope you'll have a better time with the game after some tinkering with your build!
Post edited June 15, 2014 by szablev
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Jonesy89: I think part of my problem is the sheer amount of spells that they have access to makes managing them a little overwhelming, since I know very little about which ones are worth keeping in their memory, which ones are situational, and which ones aren't even worth bothering with. Can you give me any pointers on how to handle casters?
I can understand that! By the time a caster is in the epic levels (particular prepared casters) keeping track of all their abilities can be mind-boggling! The best course of action to keep things simple is to focus on damage-dealing spells, bolstering them with metamagic if need be. Safiya can rock house with stuff like Crushing Hand, Meteor Swarm, or Isaac's Greater Missile Swarm. Kaelyn can annihilate undead with the likes of Mass Heal, and also gets the awesome fire storm spell. Gann has the least impressive 9th level spell list for this purpose, but still holds his own with the likes of Empowered Fire Storm or Bombard.

If you focus on suppression, then you can rest fairly frequently and not be seriously impacted by the spirit eater curse. If you're playing more of the "evil" path with a heavier focus on building up the hunger, then you'll need to ration the spellcasters and using damage-dealing spells (which tend to be very spammy and thus blow through your daily spell limit fairly quickly).
Post edited June 15, 2014 by Darvin
Been doing a bit more research, and currently considering one of two alternatives. Firstly, I could go with the dual-wielding Kukri idea and prestige in Invisible Blade with high Dex and Int. Secondly, instead of dual-wielding, I could go for a Rapier wielding Dualist with high Dex and Int. Still kind of on the fence, but the Duelist ability to both add their Int modifier to AC and access to a Haste-esque SLA is fairly nifty, and the Invisible Blade bleed effect is interesting (does anyone know if there is a catch to it a la high level enemies and sneak attack?).

Either way, at the very least it looks like I would be taking 10 levels in Rogue and only 3 in Swashbuckler to get Crippling Strike and Insightful Strike respectfully. After that, I'd probably finish out the prestige class barring one of them not having much at higher levels (which doesn't seem to be the case from what I can tell). Only problem is that this leaves a few levels unaccounted for (12 if Invisible Blade, 9 if Duelist). Should I take more levels in Rogue for more Sneak Attack and bonus feats, or would it be advisable to look into another class (Shadow dancer looks good, if only for the first level ability Hide In Plaint Sight, and Shadow Evade looks nice)?
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Darvin: I can understand that! By the time a caster is in the epic levels (particular prepared casters) keeping track of all their abilities can be mind-boggling! The best course of action to keep things simple is to focus on damage-dealing spells, bolstering them with metamagic if need be. Safiya can rock house with stuff like Crushing Hand, Meteor Swarm, or Isaac's Greater Missile Swarm. Kaelyn can annihilate undead with the likes of Mass Heal, and also gets the awesome fire storm spell. Gann has the least impressive 9th level spell list for this purpose, but still holds his own with the likes of Empowered Fire Storm or Bombard.

If you focus on suppression, then you can rest fairly frequently and not be seriously impacted by the spirit eater curse. If you're playing more of the "evil" path with a heavier focus on building up the hunger, then you'll need to ration the spellcasters and using damage-dealing spells (which tend to be very spammy and thus blow through your daily spell limit fairly quickly).
No kidding about spellcasters; my first P&P game, I played a level 5 Beguiler with a level in Mindbender kitted out with all sorts of metamagic feats, and the sheer number of spells and SLAs I had access to was enough to make my head swim at points. I don't think anyone I was gaming with will admit it, but I'm pretty sure that my prolonged consultation of my list of abilities was the reason they took to letting the next player know when the person before them was taking their turn XD Anyway, thanks for the tips on damage spells. Are there any particular buffs I should make use of or avoid?
Post edited June 15, 2014 by Jonesy89
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Jonesy89: my first P&P game, I played a level 5 Beguiler with a level in Mindbender kitted out with all sorts of metamagic feats, and the sheer number of spells and SLAs I had access to was enough to make my head swim at points.
PnP spellcasters are another matter entirely. The number of options available to them (especially with many splatbooks) is staggering, and if you have the system mastery to put that to use they are essentially god-like.
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Jonesy89: Are there any particular buffs I should make use of or avoid?
Persistant Haste is a great one. Move fast, all day long. Premonition is the best defensive buff for Safiya. Mind Blank is an awesome catch-all of immunities if you can't get them on items. Mirror Image and Invisibility are great low-level defensive abilities, and can be quickened if you need a "panic button".
Important cleric buffs include Mass Death Ward and Spell Resistance. Freedom of Movement can also be good.

Important Wizard buffs include Persistent Haste (The wizard NPC has the Persistent Spell feat, IIRC. Basically this will give your whole party permanent haste. Or until you rest/travel.) and Mind Blank. (Your swashbuckler/rogue will have a low will save.) Stoneskin is also good, as has been mentioned.

For the wizard herself, Premonition and/or Shadow Shield are important. Mirror Image is great, but I seem to recall it's on the NPC wizard's forbidden spell list. (She's a specialist)

There are lots and lots of effective low-level buffs you can add to this. Stuff like Spider Skin/Barkskin, Bless, Keen Edge, Mass Aid, etc, etc. all help... but it gets really tedious to cast them all the time. I'd stick with the higher level buffs to save your sanity.

Stat-boosting buffs like Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Fox' Cunning/etc are useful in the beginning, but they don't stack with stat-boosting items and you'll find those pretty early on.

For offensive cleric spells, don't forget Word of Faith, Implosion and Storm of Vengeance. Often much more effective than direct damage.

Against the undead, Sunburst is great. Against everybody else it's still very helpful. (It blinds stuff.) The Spirit Shaman and the Wizard can both cast it. The Shaman can also cast Storm of Vengeance.

Typically, in epic levels direct-damage stuff like Firestorm can't match up to fighters. A dual-wielder can get 10 attacks per round with weapons that deal as much damage as a fireball per hit. Every single round. Therefore, I find it is more effective to use the more powerful disabling/debuffing spells and then let the fighters clean house.

Also, all the spells I mentioned affect enemies only. If you have friendly fire enabled, that will save you a lot of hurt. (For this same reason, Firebrand (a level 5 wizard spell) is one of the better damage spells. Empowered, it's almost as good as a meteor swarm and a lot easier to use.)
Thanks again everyone. Got a busy week ahead of me, but hopefully I will have some time to take another stab at the game soon.