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Speaking of balance, here's a question:

In the late game, when your characters are at high levels (especially 3-digit levels if it's feasible to reach them), are Sorcerers (or the closest equivalent) better off using weapons or spells when it comes to damage?

(One problem with earlier MM games, including Xeen, is that Sorcerers were better off using physical attacks, especially if you could get them Xeen Slayer Swords (Or even just trade the one you get normally every round).)
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dtgreene: In the late game, when your characters are at high levels (especially 3-digit levels if it's feasible to reach them), are Sorcerers (or the closest equivalent) better off using weapons or spells when it comes to damage?
With usual enemies I usually cast Bless + Heroism and nuke everything by physical attacks.

But when it comes to Dragons and Titans, I use Starbursts/Meteor Showers, because I am not too much into mini-game of repair all your gear after each fight. Everything, that poses such danger, is nuked down as fast as possible.
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dtgreene: Speaking of balance, here's a question:

In the late game, when your characters are at high levels (especially 3-digit levels if it's feasible to reach them), are Sorcerers (or the closest equivalent) better off using weapons or spells when it comes to damage?

(One problem with earlier MM games, including Xeen, is that Sorcerers were better off using physical attacks, especially if you could get them Xeen Slayer Swords (Or even just trade the one you get normally every round).)
Depends on how you built them, and what you are fighting.
Having played through all 6,7 and 8 several times (and I played 6 for the first time after 7 and 8), I like 6 the most. Yes, 7 and 8 are more refined in most areas, but they seem minor compared to what 6 does better. That is, having the largest world, best dungeons (complex designs and they're big as well) a lot more enemies (and enemy types) to kill, etc. 7 and 8 now feel too easy and short.

I can imagine if you didn't like it for the difficulty after playing through 6 once, since it really is hard and knowing which enemies not to fight and how to fight some other tough enemies helps tremendously (for example, I despised those huge groups of warlocks and similar ranged attackers and was playing in real-time shoot around the corner and hide and it felt tedious. On my last playthrough I utilized ranged attacks and magic more and cared less about taking hits, so I used turn-based mode and it was actually a lot easier and faster too. Another thing is just avoiding fighting dragons/titans etc. until you have blasters and so on).

And also it just feels more charming and has the best variety of areas imo (though 7 and 8 have some great atmosphere at places too).

Lastly, I like that the skill system isn't as restrictive. You might say that classes in the later ones felt more unique, but I say it made my party almost the same every playthrough, since to get the best self and elemental magic I needed to use cleric/sorcerer. The others you still have a decent choice, but it always comes to some thief-y and tough melee character. While in 6 I could safely replace my cleric/sorcerer with other casting characters as they would only differ in their mana pools and if I had to have white/dark magic I only had to keep one of those around.
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Jann180: Lastly, I like that the skill system isn't as restrictive. You might say that classes in the later ones felt more unique, but I say it made my party almost the same every playthrough, since to get the best self and elemental magic I needed to use cleric/sorcerer. The others you still have a decent choice, but it always comes to some thief-y and tough melee character. While in 6 I could safely replace my cleric/sorcerer with other casting characters as they would only differ in their mana pools and if I had to have white/dark magic I only had to keep one of those around.
I feel that 7 is better with the restrictive skills. It doesn't feel as real when playing 6. Like why is a cleric as good with a bow as an archer? I feel like one person shouldn't be able to use both light and dark magic. Having different skills for classes makes 7 more fun to replay because once you start mixing up your party you end up with a different feeling game.
Here's another specific question: How powerful is a Sorcerer who focuses purely on physical combat skills, ignoring her spellcasting skills entirely?
it can be done but they wont be very effective (unless you cheat to gain skillmastery levels/levels)
since mage types hit their max mastery early in the few weapon types they have access to
their weapon skills are mostly for last resort when they are unable to cast spells anymore
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Jann180: Lastly, I like that the skill system isn't as restrictive. You might say that classes in the later ones felt more unique, but I say it made my party almost the same every playthrough, since to get the best self and elemental magic I needed to use cleric/sorcerer. The others you still have a decent choice, but it always comes to some thief-y and tough melee character. While in 6 I could safely replace my cleric/sorcerer with other casting characters as they would only differ in their mana pools and if I had to have white/dark magic I only had to keep one of those around.
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Pensalesman: I feel that 7 is better with the restrictive skills. It doesn't feel as real when playing 6. Like why is a cleric as good with a bow as an archer? I feel like one person shouldn't be able to use both light and dark magic. Having different skills for classes makes 7 more fun to replay because once you start mixing up your party you end up with a different feeling game.
Well, the obvious tradeoff for having a character have both light/dark is that he won't be very good in either. And same for other skills. Yes, your cleric can be as good with a bow as an archer. But you always sacrifice those points from other skills. The restriction just means you have very limited options on how to build your character. It's more or less predetermined. In 6 you simply have the ability to build characters in different ways.

Also I think the bow skill is a good example of what I dislike about 7. As mid and late game, using bows becomes useless because you'll have at most 1 character that's good at it, compared to melee, where you can make every character deal lots of damage with buffs. At least in 6 I didn't ever feel they were obsolete when I trained everyone up.

I'm also planning to do a 4 sorcerer run in MM6 next. I don't think I'd even try in 7, because of the restrictions. No disarm trap (yes, telekinesis, but it takes a long time to get it), no merchant (spells are expensive) and things like that. I think the restriction to which armor/weapons/spell schools you can learn are enough.

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dtgreene: Here's another specific question: How powerful is a Sorcerer who focuses purely on physical combat skills, ignoring her spellcasting skills entirely?
That depends. With a balanced party (and heroism/bless buffs), mid and late game, every character can be good in melee. Without the buffs, they can still be pretty good (dual-wielding daggers), though in 7 the thief class would be stronger thanks to dagger grandmastery and armsmaster skill. In 6, any class that could wield daggers would be just as strong. The difference being, that sorcerers die a lot quicker.
Post edited January 27, 2016 by Jann180
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Jann180: Well, the obvious tradeoff for having a character have both light/dark is that he won't be very good in either. And same for other skills. Yes, your cleric can be as good with a bow as an archer. But you always sacrifice those points from other skills. The restriction just means you have very limited options on how to build your character. It's more or less predetermined. In 6 you simply have the ability to build characters in different ways.

Also I think the bow skill is a good example of what I dislike about 7. As mid and late game, using bows becomes useless because you'll have at most 1 character that's good at it, compared to melee, where you can make every character deal lots of damage with buffs. At least in 6 I didn't ever feel they were obsolete when I trained everyone up.

I'm also planning to do a 4 sorcerer run in MM6 next. I don't think I'd even try in 7, because of the restrictions. No disarm trap (yes, telekinesis, but it takes a long time to get it), no merchant (spells are expensive) and things like that. I think the restriction to which armor/weapons/spell schools you can learn are enough.
I think you just highlighted why I like the restrictions in 7: the classes actually mean something. A sorcerer can no longer do everything a knight can do (except choose non-sorcerer weapons) AND cast powerful spells.

I've read that a 1 cleric/3 sorcerer party is one of the strongest parties in MM6. Try that in 7 and you'll have some gaping holes to work around. A knight isn't a sorcerer that sacrificed spell casting for a few more HP and a wider choice of weapons (most of which he'll never use in a given play through).

As for bows in 7: I use bows until I get blasters. Helps keep the melee things that do bad things at range (ex. Behemoths), and reduces the chances of a wipe against ranged things that do bad things (ex. Medusas, Titans). The skill restrictions mean that your archer isn't a gimped sorcerer.

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dtgreene: Here's another specific question: How powerful is a Sorcerer who focuses purely on physical combat skills, ignoring her spellcasting skills entirely?
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Jann180: That depends. With a balanced party (and heroism/bless buffs), mid and late game, every character can be good in melee. Without the buffs, they can still be pretty good (dual-wielding daggers), though in 7 the thief class would be stronger thanks to dagger grandmastery and armsmaster skill. In 6, any class that could wield daggers would be just as strong. The difference being, that sorcerers die a lot quicker.
As indicated here, in 6 a sorcerer can do anything in physical combat that a knight could do, if the skill points are spent on the same weapons and in the same quantities; the sorcerer will just have fewer hp. In 7 and 8, the hard caps on skill mastery mean that a sorcerer will never be as good as a knight in weapon based combat (ignoring blasters), assuming similar levels and skill point expenditures.
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Bookwyrm627: I think you just highlighted why I like the restrictions in 7: the classes actually mean something. A sorcerer can no longer do everything a knight can do (except choose non-sorcerer weapons) AND cast powerful spells.

I've read that a 1 cleric/3 sorcerer party is one of the strongest parties in MM6. Try that in 7 and you'll have some gaping holes to work around. A knight isn't a sorcerer that sacrificed spell casting for a few more HP and a wider choice of weapons (most of which he'll never use in a given play through).
Sorcerer and knight couldn't be more apart even in 6. A sorcerer can by no means do everything a knight can. Sorcerer can choose from 2 weapons and wear leather armor, Knight can choose any weapon and armor. Secondly, he cannot be good both in melee and cast powerful spells. There are skill points you need to invest and those don't grow on trees (they do in stables once a year but nevermind that). You cannot have your character be good at everything, unless you play through the game multiple times to get that many skill points. Also 2-3 times the amount of health pool isn't something I'd call few more HP.

Also saying that without X your party will be bad is exactly what I have a problem with. As I said, this makes every playthrough very much the same as you're forced to make only certain party setups.

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Bookwyrm627: As for bows in 7: I use bows until I get blasters. Helps keep the melee things that do bad things at range (ex. Behemoths), and reduces the chances of a wipe against ranged things that do bad things (ex. Medusas, Titans). The skill restrictions mean that your archer isn't a gimped sorcerer.
Bows tickle behemoths at best. You either use very strong heroism/bless or fire/black magic with a lot of skill points, unless you want to fight them for hours to get to Eofol. They're just not viable for anything more other than painfully slowly killing them while they're stuck.

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Bookwyrm627: As indicated here, in 6 a sorcerer can do anything in physical combat that a knight could do, if the skill points are spent on the same weapons and in the same quantities; the sorcerer will just have fewer hp. In 7 and 8, the hard caps on skill mastery mean that a sorcerer will never be as good as a knight in weapon based combat (ignoring blasters), assuming similar levels and skill point expenditures.
Yes, again, if you assume they both use daggers or staves (No idea why you'd do that when knight could dual-wield spear and sword for insane damage). And also assuming the sorcerer gimps himself in terms of spell casting because of the wasted skill points. I don't see a problem with that.
Edit: And I almost forgot shields. My party with which I beat the game last now has a champion (and cleric) that get +80 AC just from equipping a shield and not losing much in terms of damage and attack. Sorcerer cannot even equip shields.
Post edited January 27, 2016 by Jann180
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Jann180: Sorcerer and knight couldn't be more apart even in 6. A sorcerer can by no means do everything a knight can. Sorcerer can choose from 2 weapons and wear leather armor, Knight can choose any weapon and armor. Secondly, he cannot be good both in melee and cast powerful spells. There are skill points you need to invest and those don't grow on trees (they do in stables once a year but nevermind that). You cannot have your character be good at everything, unless you play through the game multiple times to get that many skill points. Also 2-3 times the amount of health pool isn't something I'd call few more HP.
I noted that a sorcerer has more weapon restrictions, though it is true I didn't note the armor restrictions. I was pointing out that a knight gives up any chance at the easy utility spells (fly, town portal, lloyd's beacon, wizard eye, torchlight) and some easy aoe damage spells (star burst, meteor shower) in exchange for the ability to choose any one or two weapons to use for most of the game, plate armor, and more hp (okay yes, a lot more hp at higher levels, though that doesn't help as much against the instant KO/Death monster attacks that show up in that stage of the game). In the meantime, a sorcerer can be just as good as a knight, within the limited weapon/armor choices available to him, at weapons/armor/misc skills and even minimal investment in magic can allow him access to some excellent spells in addition (Air Master is available at skill level 4). Even with zero skill point investment, the sorcerer has all elemental spells available, and possibly all light and dark spells available too (depending on who gets the books for the top L/D spells).

Simply put: You are willing to play 4 sorcerers. Would you also be willing to play 4 knights?

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Jann180: Also saying that without X your party will be bad is exactly what I have a problem with. As I said, this makes every playthrough very much the same as you're forced to make only certain party setups.
I didn't say it made your party bad, I said you will have a hole to work around. I've beaten MM7 without a cleric and a sorcerer, using a druid instead (though I was definitely missing those GM level perks); iirc, I tended to run up and beat the ever loving crap out of everything with my 3 melee oriented characters in that play through, while my druid did the magical lifting.

It means your party member choices shape how you play the game a lot more, and each class has its strengths and weaknesses. I find the classes in 6 to be a lot more generic, where any skill that is shared between two classes can be done equally well by either class.

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Jann180: Bows tickle behemoths at best. You either use very strong heroism/bless or fire/black magic with a lot of skill points, unless you want to fight them for hours to get to Eofol. They're just not viable for anything more other than painfully slowly killing them while they're stuck.
They tickle, and tickle, and tickle, until finally the behemoth dies of laughter without ever hitting me. Granted, I am the patient sort, generally willing to kite the crap out of monsters if it means I don't have to risk more damage. My character's HP belongs in their HP pool, not in blood splats, and their gear should remain unbroken!

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Bookwyrm627: As indicated here, in 6 a sorcerer can do anything in physical combat that a knight could do, if the skill points are spent on the same weapons and in the same quantities; the sorcerer will just have fewer hp. In 7 and 8, the hard caps on skill mastery mean that a sorcerer will never be as good as a knight in weapon based combat (ignoring blasters), assuming similar levels and skill point expenditures.
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Jann180: Yes, again, if you assume they both use daggers or staves (No idea why you'd do that when knight could dual-wield spear and sword for insane damage). And also assuming the sorcerer gimps himself in terms of spell casting because of the wasted skill points. I don't see a problem with that.
For this part, I was responding more to Dtgreene's question than to you, just quoting you since you'd already provided a pretty good answer.

If you're good with this level of class interchangability, that's fine by me. My preferences just lie elsewhere. Jumping game series, this is one of the things I liked more about Final Fantasy 9 over 7 or 8: in FF9 your party member choices meant quite a bit more than a change in dialog options and limit breaks.
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Bookwyrm627: Simply put: You are willing to play 4 sorcerers. Would you also be willing to play 4 knights?
I don't see why not (long ago I actually started one, but didn't finish because I played other games and forgot about it). At least I think it would be viable (though certainly easier in 7 with the armsmaster skill), just maybe not that interesting. I was thinking that I'd spec each sorcerer into one elemental magic school. The knights would just be a squad of turtles :D (but at least they'd still have a viable ranged option thanks to bow mastery! :D although wands. Does 6 have wands? I never use them. I only did in 7 on my last run).
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Bookwyrm627: They tickle, and tickle, and tickle, until finally the behemoth dies of laughter without ever hitting me. Granted, I am the patient sort, generally willing to kite the crap out of monsters if it means I don't have to risk more damage. My character's HP belongs in their HP pool, not in blood splats, and their gear should remain unbroken!
Well, yeah, I did the same when I was younger and had infinite time to play. I'd rather feel like I'm progressing nowdays.

And obviously the class restriction is a preference thing. But for the sake of replayability I think 6 is better because of the more flexible classes.

Edit: 6 has wands, saw one in a shop :D
Post edited January 27, 2016 by Jann180
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Bookwyrm627: Simply put: You are willing to play 4 sorcerers. Would you also be willing to play 4 knights?
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Jann180: I don't see why not (long ago I actually started one, but didn't finish because I played other games and forgot about it). At least I think it would be viable (though certainly easier in 7 with the armsmaster skill), just maybe not that interesting. I was thinking that I'd spec each sorcerer into one elemental magic school. The knights would just be a squad of turtles :D (but at least they'd still have a viable ranged option thanks to bow mastery! :D although wands. Does 6 have wands? I never use them. I only did in 7 on my last run).
Yep, 6 has wands and scrolls and such. I'm just too addicted to certain spells to ever consider working without them. If I can't have Wizard Eye (at least expert level) and eventually Fly, some things just get too tedious! I actually don't use a lot of the damage spells, but some of those utility spells I have an incredibly hard time passing up; I was REALLY missing GM Protection from Magic in my no Cleric run.

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Bookwyrm627: <I use bows!>
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Jann180: Well, yeah, I did the same when I was younger and had infinite time to play. I'd rather feel like I'm progressing nowdays.
I just have a major aversion to spending resources that I don't feel I need to spend. In the Breeding Ground, I'll wear the Behemoths down as much as I can before they close in to melee, to preserve hp/mp.
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Bookwyrm627: I just have a major aversion to spending resources that I don't feel I need to spend. In the Breeding Ground, I'll wear the Behemoths down as much as I can before they close in to melee, to preserve hp/mp.
Same here. It's just that time is a lot more scarce resource now for me :)

And while I've never used these, let's not forget there are companions you can hire that can cast the spells you'd otherwise miss. In that respect, the class restrictions are not that bad in 7, but if you have to fill the gaps for spells, you still won't have space to fill them for the misc. skills, which are not restricted in 6.
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Bookwyrm627: I just have a major aversion to spending resources that I don't feel I need to spend. In the Breeding Ground, I'll wear the Behemoths down as much as I can before they close in to melee, to preserve hp/mp.
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Jann180: Same here. It's just that time is a lot more scarce resource now for me :)

And while I've never used these, let's not forget there are companions you can hire that can cast the spells you'd otherwise miss. In that respect, the class restrictions are not that bad in 7, but if you have to fill the gaps for spells, you still won't have space to fill them for the misc. skills, which are not restricted in 6.
I know. Decisions, decisions! :D