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... this game gets better with age.
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VictorD: ... this game gets better with age.
Why do you think it is still THE reference in this genre ;)

No other game ever came close to this gem ;)
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VictorD: ... this game gets better with age.
About to try this out. Excited.
cute...they still think MoO2 is the best game x'D.

hint: since a couple years ago Distant Wolrds (Universe) took the throne. MoO2 is still a nice LITTLE game, but it long stands and the big & cold shadow of DW:U ;). DW:U has more depth, scope and content than MoO2 and everything MoO2 has except turns (which is for the better in this scope).
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Xerberus86: cute...they still think MoO2 is the best game x'D.

hint: since a couple years ago Distant Wolrds (Universe) took the throne. MoO2 is still a nice LITTLE game, but it long stands and the big & cold shadow of DW:U ;). DW:U has more depth, scope and content than MoO2 and everything MoO2 has except turns (which is for the better in this scope).
Well, what is a best game really?
So many factors that you could take into account.
But in the end it is just a matter of personal preference.
The fact that DW is real-time has kept me from trying it as I want to relax when I play 4x space games and not feel any RTS pressure.
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neilkaz: The fact that DW is real-time has kept me from trying it as I want to relax when I play 4x space games and not feel any RTS pressure.
i don't play RTS games like command & conquer, starcraft and the likes...too hectic for me. DW:U is more like a space / sci-fi version of crusader kings 2 than a real RTS. it is a 4x grand strategy game. distant worlds universe was never hectic for me, you can increase speed up to 4x in dry periods or go down to 0.5x when it gets to the juicy stuff or just pause right away. there is no pressure at all involved, trust me!
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Xerberus86: cute...they still think MoO2 is the best game x'D.

hint: since a couple years ago Distant Wolrds (Universe) took the throne. MoO2 is still a nice LITTLE game, but it long stands and the big & cold shadow of DW:U ;). DW:U has more depth, scope and content than MoO2 and everything MoO2 has except turns (which is for the better in this scope).
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Rocco.40: Well, what is a best game really?
So many factors that you could take into account.
But in the end it is just a matter of personal preference.
MoO2 was / is considered one of the best 4x spacegames because of its depth and amount of features and IMMERSION it gives you.

you can:
- develope your planets civ-like
- you have a ton of research to discover
- a good amount of diplomatic options and several winning conditions
- you have heroe characters which let you bond better with your forces and increase their strength and therefor the attachment to them
- there is tactical combat and you can design your ships from ground up
- random events, space monsters and pirates
... so, this feature list pretty much sumps up the strong parts none or very rarily anything came close to (maybe galciv2 to some degree).

the only thing you could wish for were MORE depth / features, BIGGER scope and even a DEEPER immersion. ....well you got distant worlds universe for that.

more depth? try 41 resources, more comlex and less restricting ship construction (including engagement stances / behaviors), more tech and deeper mechanics in general (for example with the economy).

bigger scope? a couple dozen of star systems in MoO2 are kinda cute compared to 1.400 star systems in distant worlds. also star systems in MoO2 are colored blinking lights which show you some small planets in a detail screen, it is quite abstract....in DW:U you actually can zoom into each planet / moon / asteroid / sun etc. close up, they are all in an orbit. there are 22 standard races in the base game. you don't control fleets of what 6-10 ships? try dozens in a fleet and literally hundreds galaxy-wide!

deeper immersion? well part of that comes from the scope which lets you immerse yourself deeper into the galaxy if its not only comprised of a dozen star systems or so. furthermore your economy, bases & ships are also not coming from money + production spend in a shipyard...they get actually constructed out of module which get constructed out of the raw materials you collect (there are 41 resources and over 20 strategic resources everything is comprised of). these resources are traded between the races and the supply & demand creates their price which affects the building & maintenance costs of your ships & bases. those resources have to be mined from planets or asteroids, getting physicall transported by ships (which can be attacked), populations get transported by civilian vessels, or tourism ships with passengers, all are not magically appearing at their locations..they are transported by ships and you might just follow one and watch its story unfold. there are also space monsters like sand slugs (dune anyone?) or nano clouds, there are pirate FACTIONS...not just some randomly spawned mobs flying around and attacking anything cause their reason of existence is the be a nuisance and to be a nice target practice and void filler till the empire wars kick in...in DW:U the pirate factions have their own goals. there are mercenaries, smugglers, raiders or a mix of those....having their own economy, goals and victory conditions. if you pay a pirate to give you information about something (colony location, star map etc.) or hire them for a job (yes, attack / defend missions or smuggling missions for example) then this money won't vanish in thin air..the pirate faction receives the money and uses it to grow and thrive for its own goals.

point is, i could go on and on about why DW:U is simply superior in many ways...."but it ain't turn based"...well yeah i prefer turn based over realtime...but this one isn't pressuring the player...it is relaxing like a turn-based game but its realtime nature gives it the possibility of a bigger scope...you can't really control a galaxy with up to 1.400 star systems and 50.000 planets in a turn-based fashion....realtime allows it to be a simulation like CK2 or EU4 and to pull you in.

sure, what game is the best of x genre is highly subjective, but you can't deny the fact that except turn-based system and deep colony developement (again, dozens / hundreds of colonies would go towards micro-hell anyway) DW:U has everything MoO2 has to offer and MORE! now the statement that it is (still) the best 4x spacegame i feel is HIGHLYX subjective just because you might have grown up with it and its one of your nostalgic games which will always have a place on your HDD...sure...its fine...i played MoO2 myself and i like it....but it can't compete with DW:U...not the slightest...sorry!
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neilkaz: The fact that DW is real-time has kept me from trying it as I want to relax when I play 4x space games and not feel any RTS pressure.
I agree with this 100%. I love TBS and whenever they try to make it RTS they inevitably fail because to many things just can't be done and it winds up just being an insane click fest and all about who has the better computer.

I don't mind if turns start being TIMED but this usually happens after you have learned a bit about the game so that you know what your doing.
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neilkaz: The fact that DW is real-time has kept me from trying it as I want to relax when I play 4x space games and not feel any RTS pressure.
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EvilLoynis: I agree with this 100%. I love TBS and whenever they try to make it RTS they inevitably fail because to many things just can't be done and it winds up just being an insane click fest and all about who has the better computer.

I don't mind if turns start being TIMED but this usually happens after you have learned a bit about the game so that you know what your doing.
automation? pause button? slow down gametime? or just the fact that not all realtime games are hectic cause they aren#t competetive? ever heard of someone crying clickfest regarding europa universalis or crusader kings 2? same thing can be said about DW:U!

but hey, miss out on DW:U ....your loss :D.
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Xerberus86: automation? pause button? slow down gametime? or just the fact that not all realtime games are hectic cause they aren#t competetive? ever heard of someone crying clickfest regarding europa universalis or crusader kings 2? same thing can be said about DW:U!

but hey, miss out on DW:U ....your loss :D.
Thanks to bring it to my(our) attention, but 55 bucks? A bit steep. Not saying that it isn't worth it, don't get me wrong ;)

Just couldn't afford it ;)

And not sure if 41 resources DO necessarily add more complexity...it could just add more hassle...Same goes for other factors you mentioned....

What MoO2 managed to combine is a easy to play variant of being a ruler, but still having the last say ;) i.e. 1 worker is actually 1000 people ;)

But it still has the depth to make every decision count.....Adding more details CAN (not must) take a lot of this special feeling away.

I will keep it on the radar though, and there seem to be even mods around...
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Xerberus86: automation? pause button? slow down gametime? or just the fact that not all realtime games are hectic cause they aren#t competetive? ever heard of someone crying clickfest regarding europa universalis or crusader kings 2? same thing can be said about DW:U!

but hey, miss out on DW:U ....your loss :D.
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Goodaltgamer: Thanks to bring it to my(our) attention, but 55 bucks? A bit steep. Not saying that it isn't worth it, don't get me wrong ;)

Just couldn't afford it ;)

And not sure if 41 resources DO necessarily add more complexity...it could just add more hassle...Same goes for other factors you mentioned....

What MoO2 managed to combine is a easy to play variant of being a ruler, but still having the last say ;) i.e. 1 worker is actually 1000 people ;)

But it still has the depth to make every decision count.....Adding more details CAN (not must) take a lot of this special feeling away.

I will keep it on the radar though, and there seem to be even mods around...
again, all beautifully done in DW:U....automation :D. you just wanna focus on controlling 1-2 fleets while the AI takes care of the rest or asks you at important decisions what to do? DONE!

41 resources sound much but its no micromanagement at all. like i said, half of them are luxury meaning they are mainly used as a resource for some racial bonuses and to increase happyness and developement level.

the beauty of DW:U and its automation is that it lets you play how you want and lets you dive as deep as you want. just wanting to wet your feet or swimming on the surface enjoying the slight breeze? put on much automation and fiddle / change the things you seem fit....wanna dive deep into the ocean? disable all automation and enjoy the endless depths.

and regarding your 1 worker is actually 1000 people...well even with 30 orkers that makes 30.000 people, kinda underpopulated don't you think? DW:U has literally billions of people (in numbers) on the planet, no big difference and as i said, it is like crusader kings 2 not a "hey lets put down a xeno facility to give me +5 production" -game....that might sound fun but after a while, in galciv 2 / 3 for example, it becomes more tedious than anything. at the s tart where such decisions make a huge impact it is fun and all...but mid to lategame it is just a hazzle but sadly a huge part of the gameplay.

i saw in another thread here that lategame if you have like 28 colonies, queueing up stuff becomes qutie micromanagy ....well thats the reason i almost never finish games like civ5...lategame it becomes only micro-hell without any real or big impact.

like i said, MoO2 is quite simple and much of its "depth" or "special feeling" comes from the nostalgia and the fact that it still offers a mix not much else has to offer...oh wait there are some MoO2 clones like stars in shadow, but it still remains that the maps are never going to be truly big or the features getting more indepth because at some point in the game design you can't go deeper with the turn-based model...it would take too much time each turn to do so.

i have played over a dozen hours of MoO2, but several hundred hours of DW:U...it is just a beast. i bought it at the release date of the 2nd expansion pack...till now i have spent around 180 EUR to getting to the distant worlds universe version.....them selling it now for 55 EUR is a steal. also consider that it rarely goes on a sale. the game is well worth the asking price though. if you can't afford it, well sry but your loss :3.
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Xerberus86: again, all beautifully done in DW:U....automation :D. you just wanna focus on controlling 1-2 fleets while the AI takes care of the rest or asks you at important decisions what to do? DONE!

41 resources sound much but its no micromanagement at all. like i said, half of them are luxury meaning they are mainly used as a resource for some racial bonuses and to increase happyness and developement level.

the beauty of DW:U and its automation is that it lets you play how you want and lets you dive as deep as you want. just wanting to wet your feet or swimming on the surface enjoying the slight breeze? put on much automation and fiddle / change the things you seem fit....wanna dive deep into the ocean? disable all automation and enjoy the endless depths.

and regarding your 1 worker is actually 1000 people...well even with 30 orkers that makes 30.000 people, kinda underpopulated don't you think? DW:U has literally billions of people (in numbers) on the planet, no big difference and as i said, it is like crusader kings 2 not a "hey lets put down a xeno facility to give me +5 production" -game....that might sound fun but after a while, in galciv 2 / 3 for example, it becomes more tedious than anything. at the s tart where such decisions make a huge impact it is fun and all...but mid to lategame it is just a hazzle but sadly a huge part of the gameplay.

i saw in another thread here that lategame if you have like 28 colonies, queueing up stuff becomes qutie micromanagy ....well thats the reason i almost never finish games like civ5...lategame it becomes only micro-hell without any real or big impact.

like i said, MoO2 is quite simple and much of its "depth" or "special feeling" comes from the nostalgia and the fact that it still offers a mix not much else has to offer...oh wait there are some MoO2 clones like stars in shadow, but it still remains that the maps are never going to be truly big or the features getting more indepth because at some point in the game design you can't go deeper with the turn-based model...it would take too much time each turn to do so.

i have played over a dozen hours of MoO2, but several hundred hours of DW:U...it is just a beast. i bought it at the release date of the 2nd expansion pack...till now i have spent around 180 EUR to getting to the distant worlds universe version.....them selling it now for 55 EUR is a steal. also consider that it rarely goes on a sale. the game is well worth the asking price though. if you can't afford it, well sry but your loss :3.
Wanted to shorten your reply, but decided against it ;)

The problem with atomization, same as in MoO2, is the AI any good at it? In most games (own experience), nope it isn't. And If you are already strong enough to beat the AI, it doesn't matter anymore anyway.

And on MoO2 some of the games (actually quite a few;) ) even till mid-game, it made a huge difference if YOU or the AI was building things.

When you state 20 resources are just luxury, already sounds a bit like, oh we added far more resources (so not really having any value at all (as I said it sounded ;) )
What you described before, sounded good (statical depth, needed for production)

The further point of the auto is, how good is the AI, I don't know ;) (about your point diving and so on)

Workers: You could also see, there is a family behind and son, so it might be really far more, but I do get your point ;)
Crusader Kings haven't played.
The i.e. production bonus, is actually till mid-game a decisive factor....And (somewhere the designer explained why they did it this way) it was done, as you shall feel as a king (whatever ;) ) and not micromanaging everything:
You hammer on the table and say: Do it ;)

If you get too much into details, it really can take this special feeling away, as you are not longer the King anymore.

I stopped with CIV 3 (IIRC) I went more with Call to Power, you were able to save your queues to HD, meaning in one late game, you make the complete queue and you can reload it from the beginning in the next game ;)

Not going deeper, yes you could, but they went for this special balance in MoO2, which I think is the reason why it is still the reference.

I spend at least 400 hours into MoO2 ;)
I have to agree that "but it's real-time" is not a good reason to miss out on DW. On the other hand, I think DW and MOO2 are trying to do different things, and I don't think that piling on complexity makes a game automatically superior.

I haven't played DW:U yet, but I have DW plus the expansions up to DW:Shadows. I still haven't gotten into it very deeply (SO MANY 4X GAMES, SO LITTLE TIME!) but my impression is that DW feels more like a simulation. You can watch all those tiny AI traders move between your colonies and your ships fly to mining stations at gas giants to refuel. It's not about controlling everything, but about helping your empire grow. And even though trade is completely in the hands of the AI, there's still an overwhelming amount of decisions to make. You're supposed to hand off the stuff you don't want to manage to the AI.

But sometimes I think, why are those 41 different resources even there? The game won't let me decide how to distribute them ("Hey, traders, since you're taking off to pick up some luxury resources at my new colony, why don't you idiots also get some construction material there, so they can work on that spaceport I paid for ages ago?!"). And I couldn't manage all that myself even if the game let me. Would it actually make a big difference to me if the game had abstract "production" like MOO, and traders flying around for decoration?

EDIT: "1 worker is actually 1000 people" I think it's actually more like 1 million (or billion?). 1000 was Master of Magic. But I also don't get why that matters. Both DW and MOO are just showing you some numbers/icons and tell you, hey, that's how many people are living on that rock. How does that make one game better than the other?
Post edited July 31, 2015 by RFS81.773