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Master of Orion: Conquer the StarsRace Balance Feedback(36 posts)(36 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 02, 2016
So a few things:

1. From a visual and audio design standpoint, I like what the game is doing with the various races. They have a lot of personality, which I tend to like in a lot of games.

2. Unfortunately, the current game design of the races isn't doing enough to differentiate them. They all feel sorta . . . samey I guess? It felt like in prior games each race was kinda geared for a specific play-style - Psilons were all about research since they were creative, Humans were about Heroes and making nice with everyone, etc.

In other words, your choice of race really influenced the type of game you were going to play. Currently, the new game is pretty much "make as many colonies as you can --> ??? --> Profit" no matter what you pick. That's disappointing.

3. I think this is a function of two things: (a) the tech tree being more or less omni-available with very few exceptions and (b) a lack of gov't types.

The tech tree matters because in prior games you could only research one tech in a tree unless your race was creative. The choices you made were often informed by your racial passives. You either steered heavy into buffing what was already good about your race or you tried to buff your weaknesses. You might even be able to ignore certain techs entirely (i.e. Silicoids don't need farming techs).

Over time, that had the tendency to differentiate races strategically - one might have focused on military tech while another might be about colony rushing. As a player that meant having to adjust your strategy depending on who you encountered. MOO is a strategy game, so more strategery tends to = better.

The gov't type matters because those were shorthand way of packaging several passive traits together. For example, a Democracy gave you + to research and income, but a penalty to spying. Unification gave you a bonus to production and morale but you had a hard time assimilating colonists, etc. Again, that helped make each race feel different and also tied into research.

So, to sum up, I think to fixing the race balance right now will require a change to how tech research works and also the re-introduction of gov't types to the game.
Posted March 03, 2016
I'm going to add here, that selective tech is important both for Psilons (creative) and Darloks (espionage). Spying isn't very useful when there isn't a lot to steal.

Second, you need ship boarding, I can't emphasize this enough, as it helps differentiate the Bulrathi. They are supposed to have a ground troop bonus which also applies to boarding ships.
Posted March 14, 2016
Played a "run through" game as the Humans and found a few problems with the Psilons (having conquered them ;)) as follows:-

1.Psilons have a home world that is normal gravity,but their bias is towards low gravity,so they pay a gravity related penalty (unless transferred to a low gravity planet which if so done they're fine) from "the off".

This is probably an oversight I suspect,easily adjusted for by making their starter planet low gravity.

2.When transferring population around to take advantage of various racial traits (especially gravity based traits) its necessary to use civil transport (in Moo2 it was done via spare freighter space) (ie low grav pop units onto low grav planets,etc) there was no morale penalty for mixed race planets I noticed.

3.When trying to get the last say Human off a low grav planet this was extremely "hit and miss" and often I took the planets pop down to 2 to get a 50/50 chance of picking up the right unit in the civil transport.On one planet I had this took building 5 civil transports to do.

Otherwise,like the graphics,good to see that starlanes are "blocked off" in places (allowing defensive systems to be built up),Factory ships are highly adaptable and useful in many ways (I prefer NOT building the research and production facities on gas giants or rubble though that's a personal preference and tactic,but do like the short term possibilities of these extra options),overall its a goodmix of MoO2,MoO3 and the original game with some nice thoughtful additions that are not out of place :)

Diplomacy could use less "wild swings" in mood I feel,especially in the final version of the game.Most diplomacy options though works fairly well apart from this aspect.

Computer played races in MoO4 get to 3 star systems before thinking of lashing out left,right and centre but this is far too soon in their development.In MoO2 this was usually 5 star systems so this needs "tweaking" upwards to get stronger computer players.

When upgrading ships,I have noticed that the "auto upgrade" of ships doesn't bring you,the player,the best options in order to fill up the space you have.Early on in my run through game I noticed that I was running around with what looked like half decent cruisers only to find on inspection that these were running around half empty of equipment! No doubt the computer's ships are doing this as well methinks (otherwise why would 4 cruisers of mine lose at first,then on resetting the ships up from scratch the same ships wiping out a star base,missile base,ground batteries and a slew of computer player ships?).
This issue also existed in MoO2 incidentally.

Overall though,this is already light years ahead of the diabolical MoO3 and looks like its going to give MoO2 a serious run for its money (at last!) :)

I do hope that the Gnolams,Elerians and Trills get a look in,and maybe also a few of the more interesting minor MoO3 races that could be developed,though maybe that's one for MoO5 :)
Posted April 25, 2016
Has anyone been able to work out whether any of the races are "friendlier" or "more aggressive"?

This would be good information to have if you want to play a game that's less based around warfare
Posted April 26, 2016
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sephseph: Has anyone been able to work out whether any of the races are "friendlier" or "more aggressive"?

This would be good information to have if you want to play a game that's less based around warfare
In my latest playthrough the races were definitely friendlier. Klackon and Meklar seemed to have been cured of the schizophrenia that plagued them and they're actually decent to deal with now. Klackons are much less production murder-tanks that they were in previous iterations. Meklars still produce a metric ass-tonne of research but they're not attacking you out of the blue if you've formed an alliance or signed a non-aggression pact with them.

So yeah. The races, all of them, in fact, are much easier to deal with in general now.
Posted May 19, 2016
Not sure if this is the right place for this feedback, but since there is no Sticky thread for custom races here you go:

Zero food consumption with the assumed zero food production is 100 cost less 40 = 60 total cost. This is by far the most powerful base set up. I think Zero food consumption should cost 100 with the option to take zero food consumption being mutually exclusive. On a side note tech advances such as Soil Enrichment Facility should add it's bonus to food to all food producing buildings. This will give Zero Food production viability along with a reduced food consumption trait other than zero food consumption.

Add to this +50% growth and it's worth any penalties one must take to get this set up.

Bonus credit production costs 10 too many points each now. Negative credit production return should be 10 points less.

Morale bonus of 10 and 20 should be bumped up in cost by 10 and 20 points each. As it is now putting 20 points into +20% morale and then setting taxes at 5 per citizen outproduces +50% Credit Production trait. Negative Morale Penalties should return 10 to 20 and 30 to 40 points more each. A negative 20 morale would be crippling early.

Gravity Tolerance: Needs to be reduced in cost. There are far too few planets with low and high gravity to justify ever paying more than 10 for either and 30 for both.

Travel Speed bonus: Reduce to 10 or 15
Stealth: Reduce to 20

Improved Negotiations: and Improved Disposition should both be reduced by 10 each.

Command Points bonuses : Set to a 1 to 1 cost ratio to the bonus provided.

Starting Tech. Why would anybody pay 20 customization points for 40 research points especially when +25% Research from Population is 30 customization points?

Homeworld size: Large should be 10 and huge should be 20 cost

Ultra-Rich trait should be 40 instead of 60. (60 points gets a player 50% bonus production for their entire empire and even for just the homeworld that is probably better than the UR trait.)

Assimulation: +25% should be 10 cost and Immediate should cost 40.

Missions Duration. -10% should cost 20 and -20% should cost 40.


For a point of reference of how overpowering zero food consumption + 50% growth is:
turn 143 I was producing 1800+ credits a turn, 1300+ research a turn, had a doomstar with all the bells and whistles built, In a 6 player very hard game while actively fighting 3 races at the same time and I was at 48% economic output for all the races combined. This is at least 60 turns better than any of the stock races. This combination needs to be nerfed.
Post edited May 23, 2016 by RollenZ
Posted May 25, 2016
Zero Food Consumption, 50% growth is still overpowered even with the change to 30 points returned for -50% food production.

+20% morale is also overpowered. For 20 cost it nearly eliminates the need for any morale boost structure besides government center and marine base. The ability to run 5 BC taxes per population from the start is a huge benefit and with zero food/fast population growth it turns into an exponential growth economy. In a large universe, very hard AI pre-warp start with 8 players I was at 58% of the total economy around turn 80. My research number was about 40 times higher than the next best player around turn 140. Part of this is the AI is still weak, but it should still show this racial combination is overpowered.
Posted May 29, 2016
Low Gravity and High Gravity need to be altered. There are not enough low and high gravity planets generated to warrant the cost of customization points.

Ultra rich is also too expensive at 60. Rich is probably fine at 20, but even that is costly considering that for 10 more points a player can chose +25% production for the entire empire.

I think rich at 20 is sort of reasonable, but Ultra Rich should only cost 30.
Posted July 15, 2016
I already posted this in your forums, but here you go.
These are my suggestions for the main race traits.

ALKARI
Homeworld Special: Artifacts
Natural Pilots: Beam Defense +50%, Ship Improvements Travel & Combat speed bonus, Remove Beam Attack +25% from description
Militarists: -REPLACED TRAITS- +10% Ground Combat, +10% command points, +10% Morale
Homeworld Size: Large-REMOVED-
Diplomacy: Worsen Disposition with Mrrshan -PROPOSED TRAIT-

BULRATHI
Ecologists: Starting tech Biology, Pollution reduction 25%.
Homeworld Size: Large
Homeworld Minerals: Rich -REMOVED-
Gravity Tolerance: High Gravity (-25% in Production, Food & Ground Combat in Low-G, +25% Ground Combat in High-G)
Ground Combat Rating: +50%

DARLOK
Diplomats: Starting Tech Government, Morale +10% -REMOVED-
Stealthy: Ship Improvement Stealth, Mission Risk -20%
Shapeshifters: Security +10%, Assimilation Power -25%
Repulsive: Worsen Negotiations & Disposition -PROPOSED TRAIT-

HUMAN
Diplomats: Starting Tech Government, Morale +10% -REMOVED-
Charismatic: Improved Negotiations & Disposition (This should be called Diplomats IMHO)
Traders: Trade treaties & trade goods bonus
Democratic: -10% Security, -10% Morale, +50% Assimilation Power, +20% Research speed -PROPOSED NEW TRAIT-

KLACKON
Industrialists: Starting tech physics. Production from population +25% +50%
Subterranean: Homeworld type Desert, Uber Planet Cavernous, ADDED TRAIT +20% more population cap in Desert/Cavernous, -20% Deaths from Bombardment in Uber Cavernous.
Uncreative: Technology Uncreative, Research from population -25%
Population Growth: +25% -NEW TRAIT-
Food from population: -50% +25%.

MEKLAR
Cybernetic: Food from population -50%, Production from population -25%, Ship Improvement Auto Repair.
Population Growth: -25% -NEW TRAIT-
Industrialists: Starting tech physics. Production from population +25% +50%

MRRSHAN
Militarists: -REPLACE TRAITS WITH- +10% Ground Combat, +10% command points, +10% Morale
Plains Dweller: Homeworld Type Arid, Uber Planet Grassland ADDED TRAIT +10% Ground Combat Rating in Arid/Grassland planets.
Warlord: -REPLACE TRAITS WITH- +50% Beam Attack, +10% Command Points
Diplomacy: Worsen Disposition with Alkari -NEW TRAIT-

PSILON
Technologist: Starting Tech Physics, replace homeworld special Artifacts with Starting Tech Government.
Homeworld Size: Small
Homeworld Special: Artifacts -NEW TRAIT-
Creative: Technology Creative, +25% Research from population
Gravity Tolerance: Low Gravity (-25% Ground Combat in Normal-G, -50% in Food, Production & Ground Combat in High-G)
Security: -20%

SAKKRA
Expansionist: Replace Starting Tech Engineering with Ship Cost -20%, Starting Tech Biology, +10% Command Points.
Jungle Creature: Homeworld Swamp, Uber Planet Jungle, ADDED TRAIT +20% Ground Combat Rating in Swamp/Jungle
Uncreative: Technology Uncreative, Research from population -25% -REMOVED-
Research from Population: -25% -NEW TRAIT-
Population Growth: +25%+50%
Beam Attack: -25% -NEW TRAIT-
Beam Defense: -25% -NEW TRAIT-

SILICOIDS
Lithovore: Food Consumption None (Growth dependant on Mineral Richness of planet)
Tolerant: -REPLACE TRAIT WITH- Pollution Immunity
Homeworld Size: Huge
Repulsive: Worsen Negotiations & Disposition
Lava Breather: Homeworld Volcanic, Uber Planet Inferno, ADDED TRAIT +10% Population Growth in Volcanic, +20% Population Growth in Inferno.
Posted July 19, 2016
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vahouth: I already posted this in your forums, but here you go.
These are my suggestions for the main race traits.

ALKARI
Homeworld Special: Artifacts
Natural Pilots: Beam Defense +50%, Ship Improvements Travel & Combat speed bonus, Remove Beam Attack +25% from description
Militarists: -REPLACED TRAITS- +10% Ground Combat, +10% command points, +10% Morale
Homeworld Size: Large-REMOVED-
Diplomacy: Worsen Disposition with Mrrshan -PROPOSED TRAIT-

BULRATHI
Ecologists: Starting tech Biology, Pollution reduction 25%.
Homeworld Size: Large
Homeworld Minerals: Rich -REMOVED-
Gravity Tolerance: High Gravity (-25% in Production, Food & Ground Combat in Low-G, +25% Ground Combat in High-G)
Ground Combat Rating: +50%

DARLOK
Diplomats: Starting Tech Government, Morale +10% -REMOVED-
Stealthy: Ship Improvement Stealth, Mission Risk -20%
Shapeshifters: Security +10%, Assimilation Power -25%
Repulsive: Worsen Negotiations & Disposition -PROPOSED TRAIT-

HUMAN
Diplomats: Starting Tech Government, Morale +10% -REMOVED-
Charismatic: Improved Negotiations & Disposition (This should be called Diplomats IMHO)
Traders: Trade treaties & trade goods bonus
Democratic: -10% Security, -10% Morale, +50% Assimilation Power, +20% Research speed -PROPOSED NEW TRAIT-

KLACKON
Industrialists: Starting tech physics. Production from population +25% +50%
Subterranean: Homeworld type Desert, Uber Planet Cavernous, ADDED TRAIT +20% more population cap in Desert/Cavernous, -20% Deaths from Bombardment in Uber Cavernous.
Uncreative: Technology Uncreative, Research from population -25%
Population Growth: +25% -NEW TRAIT-
Food from population: -50% +25%.

MEKLAR
Cybernetic: Food from population -50%, Production from population -25%, Ship Improvement Auto Repair.
Population Growth: -25% -NEW TRAIT-
Industrialists: Starting tech physics. Production from population +25% +50%

MRRSHAN
Militarists: -REPLACE TRAITS WITH- +10% Ground Combat, +10% command points, +10% Morale
Plains Dweller: Homeworld Type Arid, Uber Planet Grassland ADDED TRAIT +10% Ground Combat Rating in Arid/Grassland planets.
Warlord: -REPLACE TRAITS WITH- +50% Beam Attack, +10% Command Points
Diplomacy: Worsen Disposition with Alkari -NEW TRAIT-

PSILON
Technologist: Starting Tech Physics, replace homeworld special Artifacts with Starting Tech Government.
Homeworld Size: Small
Homeworld Special: Artifacts -NEW TRAIT-
Creative: Technology Creative, +25% Research from population
Gravity Tolerance: Low Gravity (-25% Ground Combat in Normal-G, -50% in Food, Production & Ground Combat in High-G)
Security: -20%

SAKKRA
Expansionist: Replace Starting Tech Engineering with Ship Cost -20%, Starting Tech Biology, +10% Command Points.
Jungle Creature: Homeworld Swamp, Uber Planet Jungle, ADDED TRAIT +20% Ground Combat Rating in Swamp/Jungle
Uncreative: Technology Uncreative, Research from population -25% -REMOVED-
Research from Population: -25% -NEW TRAIT-
Population Growth: +25%+50%
Beam Attack: -25% -NEW TRAIT-
Beam Defense: -25% -NEW TRAIT-

SILICOIDS
Lithovore: Food Consumption None (Growth dependant on Mineral Richness of planet)
Tolerant: -REPLACE TRAIT WITH- Pollution Immunity
Homeworld Size: Huge
Repulsive: Worsen Negotiations & Disposition
Lava Breather: Homeworld Volcanic, Uber Planet Inferno, ADDED TRAIT +10% Population Growth in Volcanic, +20% Population Growth in Inferno.
Thanks for the race feedback, I'll make sure to add it to the EA 5 report.
Posted August 26, 2016
Here's some race balance feedback, make the Terran Khanate (and any other added race) part of the base game, not DLC bullshit.

I have the DLC as a Games in Development, backer, but I'm disgusted to see any race calved out and placed behind any sort of paywall.
Is this the start of another game released with more DLC than base content, it begins to look like it is, a clone of GC3.

I'm extremely annoyed at this type of crappy cash grab, and it puts me off even trying to play this game.

I have games, and even free full game mods (Obduction and Enderal), that I have mopre desire to plat, on release, due to not carving out the content, this has now dropped off that must play list.
Post edited August 26, 2016 by UhuruNUru
Posted August 26, 2016
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UhuruNUru: Here's some race balance feedback, make the Terran Khanate (and any other added race) part of the base game, not DLC bullshit.

I have the DLC as a Games in Development, backer, but I'm disgusted to see any race calved out and placed behind any sort of paywall.
Is this the start of another game released with more DLC than base content, it begins to look like it is, a clone of GC3.

I'm extremely annoyed at this type of crappy cash grab, and it puts me off even trying to play this game.

I have games, and even free full game mods (Obduction and Enderal), that I have mopre desire to plat, on release, due to not carving out the content, this has now dropped off that must play list.
The Terran Khanate are available if you get the Collector's Edition.
Posted August 26, 2016
I know this isn`t a race thing, but it seems no one is reading my other posts.

Please allow us the ability to rename our planets.

p.s. Great game by the way. Enjoying it.
Post edited August 26, 2016 by Socratatus
Posted August 26, 2016
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schnellerdamon: ...
The Terran Khanate are available if you get the Collector's Edition.
I know that, it's that's what I'm disgusted at, all buyers of the base game should be able to get all the races.

Putting any race behind a pay wall, indeed the very idea of any content , being seperated from the base game, purely to extort extra money from the customer is equally objectional.

It's irrelevant that I personally don't have to buy the collectors edition. No game content should be separated from the base game, to sell a so called, collectors edition.

It's one thing to provide additional physical goods in a boxed set for collectors, but this is digital content.

The entire idea that anything digitally available, and thus infinitly reproducable, has any extra value as a collectable is an insult, especially here on GOG, where such content has always been provided as an added bonus, and an extra incentive to buy the base game , along with the DRM free nature of this site.

I will never buy any such bonus content, and I become less likely to buy the product at all.
If I wanted a Collector's Edition, it would have to be a physically packaged boxed set.
Where things like pictures, and soundtracks then have an actual collectable aspect.

Not digital content that should be provided as part of the base package as a bonus, and a thankyou to the customer for actually buying the game, when it's been sold without DRM.
Post edited August 26, 2016 by UhuruNUru
Posted August 30, 2016
My understanding is that the Terran Khanate can be rebuilt as a custom race (i have no idea what their stats are though) and the only thing we miss out on is the voice acting, advisors, etc.
The only reason why i dislike this is that we also don't have the option to play against them, which does kind of suck.
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Master of Orion: Conquer the StarsRace Balance Feedback(36 posts)(36 posts)
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