What seems to be nostalgia tainted by irritation and impatience. Haha. The problem is I really want to find a way to enjoy these types of games again. Eh, back to the Journeyman Project I go, I guess. Haha.

My question is... why do you care that you don't like strategy games? Just move on to a new genre. ;P

Your problem is that you never played Sacrifice :)

I'm sorry but how misguided is that? There's a clear difference between RTS and TBS games.
All RTS games require micro, except that back in days of WC1 and 2 people were simply too bad to do it properly. Not to mention that macro is infinitely harder in RTS than it is in TBS. There's absolutely no 'twitch' gameplay in RTS, it's all extreme precision.

I wouldn't even begin to compare games like SC2 and Civ III (the latter which I consider primarily a 4X game). Civ III obviously has far more sophisticated mechanics than SC2, but this just boils down to requiring more time. On the downside you have RNG thrown in which always adds a lot of frustration.

In SC2 you have to not only plan your entire game and engagements, but moments of brilliance coming from split-second decision making can win and lose you games.

Both genres are "true strategy games."

What exactly do you think "twitch" gameplay is? The extreme precision is part of what "twitch" (physical) gameplay is: the requirement of speed, accuracy and precision from player. You re right, most RTS require "extreme precision", and the extreme precision is a physical challenge, not a mental challenge. The combination of micromanagement and real-time means that Starcraft is based on physical skill and dexterity, not actual decision making.

A true strategy game is all about macromanagement. Consider a game like Ogre Battle, where you can only give vague commands to a unit and direct control over individual characters within the unit is not possible. Ogre Battle is true real-time strategy. Starcraft is more of a tactics game.

Micromanagement = tactics
Macromanagement = strategy

Of course, tactical games are supposed to be a mental challenge as well, so I'm not even sure I can call a game like Starcraft a tactical game - it's probably more akin to an action game.

Ok, fine let's call it 'twitch' even though I don't see any real merit behind this. I mean effectively multiplayer Civ III is played using time limits for rounds, typically 2min each. 2min is simply not enough to complete your turn, but you can get more done if you're physically faster. Does this mean Civ III becomes a 'twitch' game?

Starcraft has three key elements to master:
Micro - unit control
Macro - production, upgrades, map awareness, scouting
Strategy - your build order, how you respond to your opponent

You need all three to become a good player. Guess which one is the least important? That's right, it's micro. Unless your macro is absolutely top notch, you cannot be a progamer. Also, working on your macro is the #1 tip for improvement for new players. You should play Starcraft II some time. I think you might be pleased to find that it is not a twitch fest.

And I fail to see how you can reasonably define a genre by a couple of obscure titles on completely absurd grounds. Games like Settlers II would be "pure strategy" by your definition because you cannot control the individual settler, whereas games like Civ III wouldn't be because precise unit control is actually required.

I love turn-based strategy, but I hate (modern) RTS. XCOM and Jagged Alliance are two of my favourite series of TBS.

I find real-time strategies overwhelming. Too much going on at too great a pace.

I guess I`m just a bit slow in the head.:)

I like liking games and types of games. I don't like disliking them. Haha.

Really, though, it's just that I used to enjoy them a great deal and now I can't pick one up no matter how long I go in between plays. It also irks me that I've basically cut off a huge chunk of possible games to play by eliminating that genre from all consideration.

Do those very same games you used to like drive you nuts know, or the newer strategy games specifically?

I personally don't like it that much how the speed of the game has progressively become a gameplay difficulty element in many newer RTS games. E.g. if you play the harder difficulty levels, you are denied the ability of slowing down the gameplay speed. I just like the old-skool RTS games which usually let you slow the game down to snail's pace if needed... and still they could feel quite challenging.

Yeah, I can still play HoMM and KB sometimes, but the rest of those? Not so much. Not even Fantasy Empires anymore (not that the combat was ever very good there.)

Maybe you should give console/handheld strategy games a spin? Most of those are turn-based, but have an extremely different feel from the stuff that you find on the PC. I have heard that Valkyria Chronicles for the PS3 is quite good.

There is also a bunch of PC strategy games that you can try, I will list off a bunch, and include videos so that you can get an idea of things. Maybe one of them would spark your interest. :)


X-COM: Wait half a year, and there will be about three different copycats/remakes available. TBS. Pretty good if you like sci-fi and conspiracy theories. You can buy Xenonauts and be able to play the beta.

Magic Carpet: One of the few 'twitch' RTS games that I enjoy. The basic idea is to fly around an world that can be deformed and altered through spells, in order to collect mana and to clear out the opposition.

Homeworld Cataclysm: One of the best standalone expansions that I have ever played. Fairly slow for an RTS game, but quite good for those of us who like Babylon 5 or Freespace.

Tactics Ogre: The original version for the SNES represented one of the first tactical RPGs that used this style. You may have heard of Final Fantasy Tactics, which was inspired by this game. There is an PSP reimagining of Tactics Ogre available.


Valkyria Chronicles gameplay
[url=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-0RY4TTNwE[/url]

Let's Play X-COM (Kikoskia)
[url=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kkfZmha4C4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLD7DE1C42D89C81C0[/url]

Magic Carpet gameplay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phuWDJPRhVY

Homeworld Cataclysm (Skip to 4:50 if you want to get to the gameplay.)
[url=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXxrMzWKaFA&feature=results_main[/url]

Ogre Battle - Let us Cling Togther (PSP, review video)
[url=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DroCB8vuP7Y[/url]

You just blew my mind. I thought Magic Carpet was a shooter.

edit: I am not being facetious, in case it seemed that way.

It is an hybrid, actually. You got strategic elements like building the castle, collecting mana, and choosing how to achieve your objectives in an mission. On the other paw, you are flying through the sky at a madcap pace while blowing a murder of crows out of the air. I think this is one of the few games by Peter Monyluex that is actually quite awesome. (Responsible for Black & White, Fable)

Early Monyleux
[url=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s9f5hiMgpQ[/url]

Another gameplay video, explains various things
[url=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6p4ZaOGPyA&feature=related[/url]

Yep, this is the exact same boat I'm in.