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General discussion (archive)What is wrong with MMORPGs now?(90 posts)(90 posts)
(90 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted June 17, 2012
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BlazeKING: My first experience with MMO's was with MUDs (Multi user dungeons) on BBS boards that you had to dial into back in the 90's on a phone line connected to your computer. Then there was Everquest, first person 3d fantasy MMO...totally sucked me in and took years from my life. And it was awesome. Til the expansions started coming in so fast that I couldn't keep up with it anymore and it wasn't fun anymore. Although the progression servers did get me to come play again.

The biggest issues IMO are lack of ingenuity, too much easy mode (little risk = little reward), and I fuckin hate that immersion breaking pay to play in store games and upgrade buttons and f2p (except you have to pay to keep going) BS. It's like in DA:O when you'd run into a quest giver only to have him say you need to buy the DLC to hear the quest. Man I hate that stuff.

The other issue is that there are so many MMO's out there that it dilutes the player population and a lack of players playing your game that requires a lot of people will kill it. A lack of low level players and newbies will kill an MMO.

I think the EQ/WoW formula can still work but there has to be some ingenuity, a focus on the world and the journey and user interaction instead of just the end game, and the easy mode has got to stop. Any MMO that holds my hand in the beginning and points me where to go and what to do automatically turns me off. I'm tired of the popups in the beginning telling me what to do. Maybe I'm an MMO elitist but I was 14 when I played EQ the first time when it came out and it was on hard mode and I took it and learned and became a skilled player. The hand holding shit is bad, making unskilled people and unskilled players. If I die because i'm a dumbass and didn't ask or look into a dangerous area before I go into it, then i deserve it and deserve to have to go back there and possibly have to get help to get my corpse and a loss in exp. I don't need a popup telling me its dangerous or an EZ rez back at home. That destroys any idea of risk which is essential for reward.
Well said, I definitely agree. I also think MMOs need to move beyond the static trading blows hotkey system for something with a bit more excitement to it, ala Vindictus, or even something that just requires more strategy and tactical thinking like Mount&Blade or Demon's Souls.
Posted June 17, 2012
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BlazeKING: <snip>
I was pretty much going to post and say the exact same thing. I, too, played MUDs in college then also played EQ pretty hardcore for a bit. In EQ you were really punished for being a bad player, and I think it made the player-base a lot better. I wish a few toughness factors would be brought back to MMOS.

Firstly, I wish death actually meant something again. Leaving a corpse with all your equipment on it would be perfect. Also a heavy death penalty (costing several hours of gameplay, for instance) would really force folks to learn to play better and figure out good group tactics.

Secondly, I would get rid of quest arrows. Force folks to actually pay attention to quests and actively search out how to solve them. Sure, I suppose this could be defeated by web searching, but their are ways to randomize even class or story quests to make this more difficult.

My major trouble with MMOs is that they have all been dumbed down and simplified to cater to the 'casual' gamer. I find newer MMOs (basically anything made in the past 10 years) to be mind-numbingly boring. I want to work for a good character. I want it to take months for me to reach the upper levels. I just want a game that is HARD.

I understand that this is a pipe dream. I understand that it isn't good business to make a game that will end up alienating most of the potential player base because it crushes their collective soul. However, I just find MMOs monumentally boring. I always knew they were a treadmill, but at least they used to actually try and hide it by requiring a certain amount of skill.

Maybe, one of these days, they will release an MMO that has certain 'hardmode' servers that I can play on. Ninety percent of the servers can still be filled with the carebear fluff that is ubiquitous in the market currently, but the other 10% will actively punish bad play and be a place that I can actually have fun playing an MMO again. I can dream, anyway. :)
Posted June 17, 2012
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thebum06: Guild Wars has good PvE and you can play it by yourself. It has a focused campaign (or four) that's as good as many single player campaigns, and you can play through it either in a group or alone. If you're alone you have to bring along NPC heroes, but their AI is pretty decent when it comes to using their skills so you don't need to micromanage anything until you reach hard mode.
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jamyskis: I found Guild Wars' campaign extremely boring to head through alone. I also started Guild Wars very, very late, so there were relatively few new-starters in the game, and the more established members of the community seems to have little patience for newbies.
The Prophecies campaign is definitely the weakest one (at least when it comes to gameplay, there are many annoying things that got fixed in the later ones)Factions has some annoying features as well, but overall I found it pretty decent and I enjoyed Nightfall too. But then again, I did have a guild to chat with when playing through it so that might have helped make it more enjoyable.
Posted June 17, 2012
1. They're not designed to be fun, they're designed to keep you playing.
2. I hate the subscription model and I hate the microtransation model.
3. I hate how they are temporary in existence and shut down.
4. I don't like multiplayer.
5. I don't care about loot.

I am pretty much the antithesis of an MMO player.
Posted June 17, 2012
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StingingVelvet:
+1

The only mmo I played a lot was Project Torque, not exactly a fantasy mmorpg, but after a while the developer torpedoed their own product and it became a sort of NFS World and that was the end of it for me.
Post edited June 17, 2012 by Strijkbout
Posted June 17, 2012
Problem is people saw how much money WOW made and tried to jump onto the band wagon with WOW wannabe games. Now the market is glutted.
Maybe on idea is an MMORPG that is NOT a fantasy game. I always thought there was room for a Science Fiction Space Opear MMORPG...but there have been a number of attempts that seem to have failed.
It will be interesting to see If Lucas Arts can pull off it's Knights Of The Old Republic on LINe MMPORG....since ,despite 3 or 4 attempts to reboot it, it has one of the more spectacular failures in MMORPS with "Star Wars:Galaxies".
Posted June 17, 2012
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StingingVelvet: 1. They're not designed to be fun, they're designed to keep you playing.
2. I hate the subscription model and I hate the microtransation model.
3. I hate how they are temporary in existence and shut down.
4. I don't like multiplayer.
5. I don't care about loot.

I am pretty much the antithesis of an MMO player.
Yep, also it's like treadmill gaming nothing matters. The world isn't impacted at all by your actions. Fight a battle, wait for respawn and every foe, even the unique named ones, will be there just as before. Complete a quest, same deal. Zero ability to innovate new items, consumables, etc etc. Looking at it from either the totally personal micro level of your character or the macro of the sever wide world the net change of you being active in game is close to zero.

And don't even get me started on the "plot development" employed by most of them...
Posted June 17, 2012
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dudalb: Problem is people saw how much money WOW made and tried to jump onto the band wagon with WOW wannabe games. Now the market is glutted.
Maybe on idea is an MMORPG that is NOT a fantasy game. I always thought there was room for a Science Fiction Space Opear MMORPG...but there have been a number of attempts that seem to have failed.
It will be interesting to see If Lucas Arts can pull off it's Knights Of The Old Republic on LINe MMPORG....since ,despite 3 or 4 attempts to reboot it, it has one of the more spectacular failures in MMORPS with "Star Wars:Galaxies".
I do think MMO publishers/developers need to stop chasing WoW, and realize that the overwhelming success the game has had over the years is an anomaly that is unlikely to be reproduced anytime soon.

I'd much rather see more smaller scale MMO's that target a specific audience.
Posted June 17, 2012
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StingingVelvet: 1. They're not designed to be fun, they're designed to keep you playing.
2. I hate the subscription model and I hate the microtransation model.
3. I hate how they are temporary in existence and shut down.
4. I don't like multiplayer.
5. I don't care about loot.

I am pretty much the antithesis of an MMO player.
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RoseLegion: Yep, also it's like treadmill gaming nothing matters. The world isn't impacted at all by your actions. Fight a battle, wait for respawn and every foe, even the unique named ones, will be there just as before. Complete a quest, same deal. Zero ability to innovate new items, consumables, etc etc. Looking at it from either the totally personal micro level of your character or the macro of the sever wide world the net change of you being active in game is close to zero.

And don't even get me started on the "plot development" employed by most of them...
This despite the fact a few MMOs have actually managed to address this, WOW phasing, Lineage 2 events used to permanently alter the world. Tabula Rasa actually had great fun destroying their world before they shut down...

I agree that a lot of starting areas of MMOs are just as you describe but that's more of a technology thing and I suspect is being addressed as tech gets better.
Posted June 17, 2012
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RoseLegion: Yep, also it's like treadmill gaming nothing matters. The world isn't impacted at all by your actions. Fight a battle, wait for respawn and every foe, even the unique named ones, will be there just as before. Complete a quest, same deal. Zero ability to innovate new items, consumables, etc etc. Looking at it from either the totally personal micro level of your character or the macro of the sever wide world the net change of you being active in game is close to zero.

And don't even get me started on the "plot development" employed by most of them...
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orcishgamer: This despite the fact a few MMOs have actually managed to address this, WOW phasing, Lineage 2 events used to permanently alter the world. Tabula Rasa actually had great fun destroying their world before they shut down...

I agree that a lot of starting areas of MMOs are just as you describe but that's more of a technology thing and I suspect is being addressed as tech gets better.
I agree that the problems I mentioned aren't insurmountable (and as you note some have started to address at least aspects of them). I suppose for a simple example of my 'ideal' for an MMO that would appeal to me it would be something like the game "New Cap City" portrayed in the SciFi series Caprica. In short something player driven.
Failing that it would require an ongoing dedication from the devs to provide an evolving story, something with the interest value of games like Gabriel Knight, Torment, Alan Wake, Fallout, Assassins Creed, etc. (Obviously theme of game would dictate what type of story).

Simply put I find myself getting very board with MMOs quite quickly due to the lack of player impact on the world/lack of changes within the world (sans buying expansions on top of the monthly fee, which personally I'm not fond of either.)
Posted June 17, 2012
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orcishgamer: This despite the fact a few MMOs have actually managed to address this, WOW phasing, Lineage 2 events used to permanently alter the world. Tabula Rasa actually had great fun destroying their world before they shut down...

I agree that a lot of starting areas of MMOs are just as you describe but that's more of a technology thing and I suspect is being addressed as tech gets better.
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RoseLegion: I agree that the problems I mentioned aren't insurmountable (and as you note some have started to address at least aspects of them). I suppose for a simple example of my 'ideal' for an MMO that would appeal to me it would be something like the game "New Cap City" portrayed in the SciFi series Caprica. In short something player driven.
Failing that it would require an ongoing dedication from the devs to provide an evolving story, something with the interest value of games like Gabriel Knight, Torment, Alan Wake, Fallout, Assassins Creed, etc. (Obviously theme of game would dictate what type of story).

Simply put I find myself getting very board with MMOs quite quickly due to the lack of player impact on the world/lack of changes within the world (sans buying expansions on top of the monthly fee, which personally I'm not fond of either.)
Tried Eve Online, plenty of player driven narrative there.

pros?:
Economy is almost totally player driven (besides skill-books and t1 blueprints), npc seeding of items have been progressively removed as player production developed.

Wars happen due to economic forces (main group in the game is a currently cartel controlling a supply bottleneck for a widely used construction material).

No grind required to enter endgame (in a useful supportive role), though your role will be very limited until you have more skills.

No exp for grinding, you only skill up in real time (based on your characters attributes & what you are trying to train)

Cons?:

Does require you to find a good corporation to fly with. You must really like PVP. You can be killed anywhere (though not without repercussion to the attacker). Your stuff will blow up and be looted; not quite perma-death, but you need to be aware of your ships mortality.
Posted June 17, 2012
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RoseLegion: I agree that the problems I mentioned aren't insurmountable (and as you note some have started to address at least aspects of them). I suppose for a simple example of my 'ideal' for an MMO that would appeal to me it would be something like the game "New Cap City" portrayed in the SciFi series Caprica. In short something player driven.
Failing that it would require an ongoing dedication from the devs to provide an evolving story, something with the interest value of games like Gabriel Knight, Torment, Alan Wake, Fallout, Assassins Creed, etc. (Obviously theme of game would dictate what type of story).

Simply put I find myself getting very board with MMOs quite quickly due to the lack of player impact on the world/lack of changes within the world (sans buying expansions on top of the monthly fee, which personally I'm not fond of either.)
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reapergi: Tried Eve Online, plenty of player driven narrative there.

pros?:
Economy is almost totally player driven (besides skill-books and t1 blueprints), npc seeding of items have been progressively removed as player production developed.

Wars happen due to economic forces (main group in the game is a currently cartel controlling a supply bottleneck for a widely used construction material).

No grind required to enter endgame (in a useful supportive role), though your role will be very limited until you have more skills.

No exp for grinding, you only skill up in real time (based on your characters attributes & what you are trying to train)

Cons?:

Does require you to find a good corporation to fly with. You must really like PVP. You can be killed anywhere (though not without repercussion to the attacker). Your stuff will blow up and be looted; not quite perma-death, but you need to be aware of your ships mortality.
Now that sounds like my kind of game =) honestly even the cons (which I do see why they were listed as such) are thinks I kind of like (I play hardcore mode if the game offers it and that sounds much the same). I'm still not thrilled about subscription based play but if I ever get the itch I think Eve just took pride of place on my list. Thanks for the info :)
Posted June 18, 2012
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Elmofongo: ...what is wrong with mmos all of a sudden? ...
Never played any of them so I can only guess. My guess is that is only all about stats, perks and polished interface and special effects and not so much about cooperation and playing together in a meaningful way. Expectations of players rose faster than game's abilities.

It would be interesting to know how, In terms of player interaction MMORPGs have evolved since Neverwinter Nights to WOW?
Posted June 18, 2012
I like the current MMO's. Well, actually I like that old MMO's were made free to play. It allowed me to go back to Everquest 2 and City of Heroes, and since I'm really don't play much I appreciate that both have been made more casual friendly (travel powers even earlier in CoH, significant speed upgrade to mounts in EQ2, and other stuff).


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Neobr10: The lack of a decent story also breaks it for me. Not to mention the lack of a sense of progression. I mean, no matter how strong you are, how many quests, raids, PVPs you get into, the world always feel the same. When im playing a game, i want the world around me to respond to my actions, and i dont get that input in an MMO.

Also, most MMOs feel way too underwhelming for a new player. I fucking hate when i have to go kill innocent rats and butterflies over and over again, and when i get a few levels, i can finally slay some innocent worms. I mean, cmon, at least make some decent enemies that feel challenging or worth killing.

I am trying to get into MMOs once again. I think ill start with DC Universe bcause i like the idea of creating a hero in the DC world.
I think DCUO will be good considering your comments (which I apologise for heavily snipping). Defintely makes you feel like you're doing something worthwhile. Same goes for City of Heroes. I haven't played DCUO much, but I played CoH for a few years (before it went F2P) and while the world doesn't really change around you (though there's a zone that you can flip between two states), you do get the feeling that you're making more of a global change as you move through the levels (even if it really stays the same, and is just story text).
Posted June 18, 2012
If one looks for a MMORPG with a great story, a world that feels alive and with great atmosphere..are there any? I'm not exactly on a MMO hunt but I was just curious considering it seems to be a specific part MMOs always lack.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)What is wrong with MMORPGs now?(90 posts)(90 posts)
(90 posts)