You surely misundertood my use of the expression 'you guys', i meant it as "you guys, users of both platforms". That's what was being discussed and that's as gray as it gets, isn't it ? As for the promotion, there's no way around it, is there ? I did point out it wasn't always deliberate but wrather a consequense of such threads/posts. I can relate to your dislike towards brands and labels though baz, i really can.


I'm pretty sure you are the only one qualified to answer that question. I guess the answer you'll come up with will mostly depend on the factor or factors making you unsure.

That does kinda answer my question. Doesn't change the fact that my portayal of the presence of steam therads on gog, the consequences being unintended or not, is accurate, but it does kinda answer my question.

That's an example of a post I have absolutely no problems with - it highlights differences between <service A> and <service B> giving a personal opinion.

No, I haven't tried Steam - I've had my internet connection disappearing for days on end too often the last few years to want anything that's centered around the always-online way of thinking. I know it's possible to make games work in offline mode, but as far as I know I still need to be connected when installing them. Another reason, just as important, is that I don't want to mess around with multiple providers, so I'm trying to stick with GOG and GG.

My experience - or lack thereof - with Steam isn't relevant here, though.

Lucky you - here it's been 16-18 degrees and rain on and off every few hours for the last couple of weeks =/
(Of course, I'd be complaining if it was too hot here too - there's no pleasing so/me =P)

I haven't been to Portugal yet (if that's where you're having your awesome weather) but it's been on my "list" for several years now - perhaps some day I'll have both the necessary time and money for it =)

Hm, yes, I'm getting that impression from multiple people here - didn't know it was that bad. We can't go wrong by "inviting" them all over here, then?

You want to talk about CDPR and the legal proceedings they initiated? Fine by me.

CDPR did knowingly and abusively exploit the legal system and dragged innocents before courts. Their actions were immoral, borderline illegal and damaging on a level far beyond gaming. Actions as those they supported and initiated have disrupted families and destroyed futures. Even if you discard the innocent, which were liberally taken into account by CDPR, they still targeted the weakest and most vulnerable of the so called "pirates". With a disgusting system established by the copyright industry as a punitive measure and to sow fear and dread. This had nothing to do with justice or compensation. That whole system they willingly used is build to construct an atmosphere of insecurity and fear. While the true pirates, those that are actually hurtful for the industry, have no problem avoiding any of this.

Those fines might not be a lot for you, but for those targeted families it is a lot of money that has to come from somewhere. I have seen many cases were actions like those had repercussions far beyond "a holiday not taken". But even if you let the targeted families aside, they still took up valuable resources of a legal system that is already stretched to the breaking point. Believe me, any judge has better shit to do than to be a pawn of the copyrights industry crusade for lost profits. And that is also why they said "fuck this" in January and made those proceedings as difficult as possible.

And all that while they were playing the good guys. Pretending to be different. What is even more jarring is the fact that the founders and current heads of CDPR all have their roots in the Polish cracking scene of the nineties. They weren't only bastards, they were hypocrites.

So pardon me, but where exactly is Steam anywhere comparable to this? "But I need to be online for installing" just doesn't cut it for me.

Yes I do judge those two differently. Because companies with policies like those CDPR showed are the vilest and sleaziest of companies there are. And let me tell you one thing, when CDPR files for bankruptcy and GOG need to be sold off as the most profitable asset I will open a bottle of champaign. Just as I celebrate every shitty exploitive company that goes down the drain.

To put it in a more comparable allegory. If we are at school, Steam is the bully that was bothering and harassing you with pranks and jokes all those years. Now CDPR enters the field, along with its bright whizkid little brother GOG. CDPR is nice and caring to you, helpful in general to the whole class. A really likeable company that is a true breather after those years of Steam bullying. And than it rapes its prom date.

That's probably the worst idea I've heard in a long time!
One of the reasons Steam forums are so bad is the number of idiots over there.
Do we really want to invite all those idiots here?
Maybe we could do it a few at a time, so we have time to train them...?

Indeed. I was told multiple times by Steam moderators directly that if you want to say anything negative about Steam or talk about other stores you are not someone they want posting there. So I stopped.

You should. We have beautiful women, good wine, nice beaches and (mostly) fair weather.

And i do appolozize if i made you jealous by mentioning the awesome wheather we're having ;)

Oh, for the love...

No Simon, i don't want to talk about CDPR's leters, you are apparently mistaking me for you. I also don't want, or need, you to sum up the whole affair for me, it seems i remember it better than you including your own statements on the subject apparently, and i certainly don't want, or need, you coming up all on your own with made up assertions on wheather or not the fines are a lot for me. I'm also not interested in comparisons regarding which policies are less fair or more worthy of attention according to SimonG, Justin Bieber or the Pope or any script where you assing yourself the grand role of lawyer paladin fighting for the rights of opressed families everywhere while en passant you assign the role of uncaring bastard to, say, me, Ok ? That may work in court but out here in the real world that shit doesn't fly. It was a nice try but seriously Simon, i'm not interested in rap music, so give it a rest already.

"You know, I for my part would not support a company that tries to increase their bottom line by censoring their forums in creating the pointless fantasy that there only is THEM, unless there's another company indulging in practices that i personnaly consider worse, because that toally gives me just about enough room to rationalize my support of the former company that tries to increase their bottom line by censoring their forums in creating the pointless fantasy that there only is THEM."

That's not what you said, is it ? Ok then, the end.

You are under the impression that every business dealing is also a support. That is not what I am saying. Because I sure as hell won't support my electricity provider. I make business with Steam. Not with their community moderators. I completely ignore the Steam community. I give Steam money, Steam gives me a service. And I cheat on Steam to get a better deal. Something I never did with GOG.

If I would make community member part of my business decisions, I would need to make your rambling part of my dealings with GOG, which I don't. Heck, a blue guy could come in here and delete all mentions of Steam. They could completely censor their forums. And I would still buy GOG games. We are on their turf, they make the rules. I would only buy games, however, I can only get here and I would wait for deals. Because I no longer support GOG then.

Clear now?

Have you skimmed over the 'custom made difinitions of support' bit on my other post ? It seems to me i have been crystal clear on your position from the get go, no ?

But you could, is that what you mean ? Is that by any chance a veiled blackmail attempt in order to get me to accomodate you Simon ? More lawyer tactics ? I tought i told you i'm not interested in rap music already ?

I expect you'll have a custom made definition of cheating, i'm sure you rationalize that just fine too.

No, I simply not buying into your definitions of support.

It might come to a surprise to you, but you do not hold the absolute truth. There is a little bit more to this world than black and white. Actually, there is a saying about people who are dealing only in absolutes ..

But thank you for defining my words for me, because you obviously know better what I think than I do. Remind me to ask you in the future what I mean by the words I use..

No, not at all jealous - I sure like these "green winters" of ours.. =P

I've met portugeese women, and they truly are beautiful, but my better half would probably object to me going there to drink wine with them on the beaches. I don't travel to sit on a beach all day though - if we come home from a trip with hundreds of pictures of rocks and trees and an old castle or five, it's been a good trip =) From what little I know of Portugal, there should be plenty of places and sights for us - and language being the biggest problem, but that usually works out eventually in my experience (except in Paris).

Oops, silly me, did i say beautiful women ? That's not what i meant at all, i meant to say beautifull landscapes and monuments. We still have some claim to being the nation with the oldest established borders, or something, so yes, there's definitely no shortage of history, castles, monasteries, that kind of thing ;)

Don't worry too much about the language, i'm told Portuguese isn't that hard to pick up and from what i can't tell in most parts people deal pretty well with English.

You may not have the desire or will to be an active participant in events or gatherings promoted by steam, and who could blame you, really, but the coin you spend on steam is the coin that maintains everything steam is and does in place and that obviosuly includes the policies steam choses to enforce on their own very public and very official forums. There's really no way around this Simon. Moderators don't dicate policies, they enforce policies that trickle down from the top. And users, well, those don't enforce shit, but you know all of this, obviously. This isn't a community/mods thing Simon, it's a company policy thing, but you know that too.

You mentioned taxes before. You know, like most Portuguese right now i can's stand our current government, i'm sure you can imagine why. Thing is, when i pay my taxes i don't rationalize it by telling myself that since i would never, ever, ever have brunch with the ministers i'm not supporting their idiotic policies with coin, i know that regardless of what i say, think or feel about them my coin is supporting the implementation and maintaining of their policies and i really have no honest choice other than owning up to my participation in the debacle, irrelevant as it may seem or be in the grand scheme of things. Like you said, things aren't perfect, and a part of that is that i won't be able to come out at the other end smeliing like roses even if i can say that i skipped their parties or that i didn't voted for them.

Yes, and there are degrees of "support" (by your decision). Yes I spend coin on Steam and I even want Steam to be successful, despite the fact that their community policy is rather shitty. But their forums or full of little shitheads, so I really don't care what is going on in there. Even if Gabe himself is pushing the ban button and is jacking of while doing it, that is OK for me. Despite all their shortcomming Steam has done a lot for the indie scene and small time devs. They stepped on the toes of some pretentious little gamers in doing so? Fine with me.

But to the same degree I would "support" GOG or any other company. Because enforcing strict rules on their forums is something I can live with. GOG would loose a degree of my support, but I would still do business with them. What you fail to comprehend is that draw a distinction between "support" (buying games for full price that I know I will never play because I like the policy) or "business" (buying only what I can, circumventing regional pricing and piracy of the occasional product).

I treat GOG and Steam differently because of their different policies.

But I do not work in absolutes. There are a lot of degrees between how I'm handling my coin with Steam and how I'm handling it with GOG.

AFAIK Steam has never done anything worthy of a full scale boycott. But please, educate me.

I haven't questioned if whether or not you send more money gog's way than you do steam's way, or if as a customer you conduct yourself differently when you're doing business with both entities or if you find that one of the companies has policies more suited to what you think company policies should be than the other, so let's keep the table clear of all the 'issues' that were never put forward as an issue by anyone other than yourself, ok ? This isn't an allegiance contest and i already told you owe me no justifications.

In terms of how you handle business with companies you do have a wide spectrum available to you but in terms of whether or not you're supporting the company you can bet it's a black and white affair, either you're supporting it or you aren't. In terms of opinion, sure, wide spectrum available ranging from "hate it" to "love it" with all the in between stops like "meh...", "i kinda like it" and so forth, but your money is either keeping the company, and its policies, in place or it is not , and how do we refer to things that keep other things in place Simon ?

But like i said, if pretending your custom made definition of support is the one to go by, by all means, pretend. If pretending that less support is the same as no support makes you feel good, go right ahead.

This has nothing to do with steam btw, this conversation applies to each and every company out there, and here we are, another thing that you already knew.

Now, you seem to be timidly trying to tap into the usual black and white bullshit.

"And let me tell you one thing, when CDPR files for bankruptcy and GOG need to be sold off as the most profitable asset I will open a bottle of champaign. Just as I celebrate every shitty exploitive company that goes down the drain."

How much room for shades of grey would you say that the person that makes this statement is willing to make ? Because to me this person kinda sounds like a zealot, a 'black and white' crazy person. Is it usual for self appointed paladins fighting for underdogs everywhere to celebrate, with champagne no less, events that throw alot of good people who did nothing wrong into unemployment ? Does any of it seems rational to you ? It seems that no matter what each of us sees in the mirror there's no escaping the uncaring bastard in all of us, uh ?

Or maybe that person isn't crazy at all. Maybe it's simply a person that was faced with something that offended his values and reacted to it. What do you think, Simon ? Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, other people find other things out there as offensive to their values as this thing was to this person's values ? Or should i, each time the offending issue comes up, just sweep this guy and his values under the rug, and tag him with a couple of colorful labels, by telling him that the qualms he has with this particular issue are irrational on the grounds that i simply don't fucking care about the issue he cares so much about ?

I'm not here to educate you, i don't fancy myself an educator, or a paladin, i'm simply a random web Joe who likes to call things by their names and hates it when the current majority presumes to tell the world which values matter and which ones don't. If you're looking for a reason to boycott this or that company i'm sure you'll be able to come up with one on your own, it's not like you are unexperienced when it comes to boycotts or business decisions made on a black and white only spectrum, is it ?

Consider the above my closing arguments, i'll naturally read your reply should you care to make one but this is it from me.

You are mixing apples and oranges. Quite badly, I might add.

Not every business dealing is equal. You can make a difference in quantity and quality. But CDPR crossed a line. An important line, not for gaming, but for a much bigger issue.

If you find your little pretentious values of a recreational activity, which can be circumvented quite easily, as important as destructive socio economic policies which also target people who never picked up a game in their life, than I'm done discussing it.

I guess the latter is something we can finally agree on.

(Out of professional courtesy I actually read the post, because you also read mine.But I'm pissed [British English] and this whole discussion is pointless. Your truth will never be better than my truth and vice versa. I know I'm right, and you know that you are right. 600 years ago we could have started a war about it and put Europe ablaze. But nowadays, the internet will have to do.)