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hedwards: EDIT: I've read his excuse and it's complete bullshit. It's none of his goddamn business what's in the DNS cache.
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silviucc: It's not an "excuse". He was not writing an apology. He was explaining what Steam does which is quite different. What he says is plausible. With access to the DNS cache you can do what he says they do... or nastier things. Like I said before, you either trust Valve and continue to use Steam or you don't trust them, reformat* and keep your system Steam-free.

* I dared not suggest that simply uninstalling Steam will fix the problem. A compromised system needs to be wiped and either re-installed or restored from a clean image.
What he's saying is irrelevant to the fact that it's one exploit away from outright spyware.And Valve isn't exactly known for safe coding practices, the entire Steam client is a steaming load of crap to begin with.

What's more, even the explanation is questionable, at some point measures to combat cheaters go too far, this whole bend over and cough attitude is just plain sad.
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hedwards:
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ShadowWulfe: I disagree with you wholeheartedly. If I'm using their software, they have every right to know what is happening on my computer, and hopefully, eventually full access to remote control.
They have to protect their property, and if I'm using it they should have a checks and balances system in place to make sure that I'm not spoofing it.
My property is secondary to their property, as my resources do not have as much liability as theirs, since I'm worth less.
I assume that there's a missing sarcasm tag, because this is a ludicrous position to take otherwise.
Post edited February 18, 2014 by hedwards
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hedwards:
Haha yah, I figured the position was insane enough to give it away, though I do suppose that there are Steam fanboys that think like that.
The 75 million Steam users will have their rude awakening, count on it!

Too bad Gaben will be too busy swimming in their money to give a fuck at that point.
This implementation isn't just tracking domain access while a VAC game is actually running; because of how DNS caching works it is both retroactive and working 24/7 (it can see domains you've visited in both the past and present, regardless of whether a VAC game was running at the time). This is spyware behaviour regardless of how benign their intent might be.
Post edited February 18, 2014 by Arkose
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silviucc: ... EA has a worse reputation than Valve's by an order of magnitude. ...At the end of the day, it's a question of trust, as Gabe put it.
But trust has to be earned, I would say. Valve'sd VAC spying is not the greatest trust building initiative. I don't really understand where people make the line between EA and Valve. Sounds all very similar.
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silviucc: ... EA has a worse reputation than Valve's by an order of magnitude. ...At the end of the day, it's a question of trust, as Gabe put it.
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Trilarion: But trust has to be earned, I would say. Valve'sd VAC spying is not the greatest trust building initiative. I don't really understand where people make the line between EA and Valve. Sounds all very similar.
EA had done other things that burnt bridges between them and the gamers. These guys saw Bullfrog, Westwood Studios, and to a lesser degree Bioware and Maxis, go down under EA's "watchful' eye. Whatever happened may be entirely EA's fault, the studios' or maybe they all share their part of the blame. The mob thinks EA's to blame. There was also the issue of employee mistreatment.

Valve is not in EA's position. They only take flak for Steam. Less exposure means less opportunity to anger people.
Post edited February 19, 2014 by silviucc
As far as draconian DRM, treatment of employees and the like the difference in reputation between EA and Valve is earned. EA never provides mod tools with their games, Valve does. Valve is industry leading in treating their employees well, EA is almost in the opposite end of the spectrum. EA has used constant online DRM on their games, Valve hasn't. EA has used limited activation DRM on their games, Valve hasn't. EA has shut down a row of loved development studios, Valve hasn't. EA has shut down the servers on a multitude of games, Valve hasn't. EA has yearly series of games, Valve doesn't.

EA as a publishers has screwed over a lot of independent development studios, Valve has helped a lot of development studios in various ways. Valve supports Linux, EA doesn't. EA has repeatedly done things that are seen as screwing over beloved franchises like the the new mobile Dungeon Keeper game, Valve hasn't. Lots and lots and lots of differences like that. Valve generally treats their community well both in term of developers they are partenered with and their customers well, very well even. EA just doesn't do that. Think about things like giving all Ubuntu and Debian developers ALL Valve games even future ones that are yet to be released? or how about giving all attendees of Steam Dev Days a Steam Machine?

How about the actual games? Valve is known for taking their time doing innovative, original games, while EA is known for rushing sequels to the market(Think BF4), charging exorbitant prices for games(contra Valve often times huge discounts). I could go on and on and on....

There are differences in how EA and Valve do business, those differences are many in number, many of those differences are huge and just about all of them are to the favor of Valve.
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Arkose: This implementation isn't just tracking domain access while a VAC game is actually running; because of how DNS caching works it is both retroactive and working 24/7 (it can see domains you've visited in both the past and present, regardless of whether a VAC game was running at the time). This is spyware behaviour regardless of how benign their intent might be.
Actually if you've read the things Gabe posted on reddit the cache is only searched after VAC detects a cheat is being used, and then just those associated hashes are sent to Valve for verification.

I honestly have no clue how you got to the conclusion of their mechanism working 24/7.
Concerning the discuss about EA and Valve:
"If I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all."
- Geralt of Rivia
Post edited February 19, 2014 by Huinehtar
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Pheace:

"... There are a bunch of different ways to attack a trust-based system including writing a bunch of code (hacks), or through social engineering (for example convincing people that the system isn't as trustworthy as they thought it was).
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Pheace:
So Valve are now claiming that people not liking or trusting them is due to the social engineering of hackers, and not just that some people do not enjoy being spied on and told how they can go about doing what they want.
Can they not accept that some people are beginning to see the truth of how bad this world is really getting and how badly behaved many large corporations are.


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Pheace: For a game like Counter-Strike, there will be thousands of cheats created, several hundred of which will be actively in use at any given time. There will be around ten to twenty groups trying to make money selling cheats.
The people behind Saints Row 3 sell the availability to cheat at the game. That checks back with Steam to make sure you have the right to cheat at the game. Is that going to get a VAC ban???


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Pheace: VAC checked for the presence of these cheats. If they were detected VAC then checked to see which cheat DRM server was being contacted. This second check was done by looking for a partial match to those (non-web) cheat DRM servers in the DNS cache. If found, then hashes of the matching DNS entries were sent to the VAC servers. The match was double checked on our servers and then that client was marked for a future ban. Less than a tenth of one percent of clients triggered the second check. 570 cheaters are being banned as a result.
Given Steams level of support and the actual ability of these "hackers" how many people will then get banned wrongly? Even worse, when people are wrongly banned will Valve ever bother to check their system is not being abused by people who actually know what they are doing?

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Pheace: There is also a social engineering side to cheating, which is to attack people's trust in the system. If "Valve is evil - look they are tracking all of the websites you visit" is an idea that gets traction, then that is to the benefit of cheaters and cheat creators. VAC is inherently a scary looking piece of software, because it is trying to be obscure, it is going after code that is trying to attack it, and it is sneaky. For most cheat developers, social engineering might be a cheaper way to attack the system than continuing the code arms race, which means that there will be more Reddit posts trying to cast VAC in a sinister light.

Our response is to make it clear what we were actually doing and why with enough transparency that people can make their own judgements as to whether or not we are trustworthy.
If Sony had responded with this when they were installing their faulty DRM / rootkit on peoples computers then it would have been called corporate bullshit. That is all this is.
Worse stating that people who see this as wrong is a complete abuse of their position. They are trying to convince people to follow them to end of the world and bash those who do not conform.
Steam is getting very close to the behavior of the Nazi regime when they began telling youngsters that if they did not go around punishing Jewish people that they were as bad as a Jew.

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Pheace: 3) Is Valve using its market success to go evil? I don't think so, but you have to make the call if we are trustworthy. We try really hard to earn and keep your trust.
Why do they not just be honest and tell people. They are not evil, they just wish to have all the information so they can actually control the situation. They already do really, as if you are unhappy you can only really choose to close your account and loose the right to rent all your games with them.
Godwin's Law achieved
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011284mm: The people behind Saints Row 3 sell the availability to cheat at the game. That checks back with Steam to make sure you have the right to cheat at the game. Is that going to get a VAC ban???
No, because Saints Row 3 doesn't use VAC.

VAC is separate from Steam, and the vast majority of Steam games do not use it. Every VAC-enabled game advertises this fact on the store page, and Steam even lets you get a list of those that do.
Post edited February 19, 2014 by Pidgeot
It's a matter of boundaries and trust. How far can anti-cheat software go? How much do you believe Valve to be working in your interest?
As much as I love our revolution, I believe and trust Gabe here.
In general I'm more convinced by "X is doing Y in order to Z" rather than by "X is doing Y... now imagine the worst Z that Y could lead to". I remember watching a YouTube video where a woman saw a RAINBOW in sprinkled water, and concluded that the government was putting chemicals there... in order to something-something nefarious, probably; never specified -_-.
I wish we lived in a wonderful world where nobody was a dick to other people online, eliminating the need for prevention, detection, and punishment of cheating. Unfortunately - this is not our world. The measures cannot be SO drastic as to outweigh the benefits they bring, but certain steps need to be taken. In the end it becomes exactly a matter of trust - either you believe Valve to be benevolent, trying to protect you from the maliciousness of others, or you think Valve is out to get you, you data, your freedom... whatever. Of course - it's not binary; you can trust them more or less. You can accept a certain threshold of trust, reject anything that doesn't satisfy it. In the end - I sincerely doubt Valve is "evil", in the radical sense. At worst they are unscrupulous but rational, which would still require compelling reasons to betray trust. In this game, after all, having loyal customers beats almost anything else, thus only a madman would risk this amazing asset for some petty cash gained in underhanded dealings.
Post edited February 20, 2014 by Vestin