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You say that Steam offers not an appropriate support. In how far is that?
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Atlantico: In context: Origin is great...
Still good joke, mate, made my day, again. Thanks pal. Good load of humour is always welcomed. Especially at monday's morning. What would I do without you, friend?

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Atlantico: ...compared to fucking Steam.
Does it matter how fast origin tech support reply will be if it's still useless?
Does it matter how many free games they give away, if you already paid for all them, and some of them still do not work (awesome support, yay!)?
Does it matter if big lettering yells about 30-days moneyback, if there is small font saying this product is not supporting that feature? And what's the point in that moneyback, if there are purchased games that do not work still and you can't return them, because you bought them before those attention grabbing features were introduced (guess what, no matter what they say, they really didn't wanted third gold poo), and support replied after 15 days at best (moneyback period was 14 days), informing you your moneyback period expired.
Is origin less intrusive when there was le scandale in Germany regarding sniffing EULA? Yeah, they've changed that (EULA), in Germany, but what about rest of the world? Had it stopped being a snitch?
Why origin is great, if it forces you to use language of area you're currently in, and it doesn't even asks whether you know this language or not? They blamed Steam for not allowing them doing business, now they have their own marketplace, and it sucks (two golden poo in row were well deserved). It's your damn place, allow me to buy version I want, you can't point fingers on Steam anymore. They didn't even tried to change that for over 3 years now. I don't mind to pay more, if I really like the game, but they don't give me option to do so.

Simply put, if origin was a vacuum cleaner, all other vacuum cleaner manufacturers would go bankrupt, because nothing sucks like origin. Well, maybe uplay, but it's just basically origin's cheap knockoff. You know, like Smith&Wesson Sigma in comparison with Glock, only worse.

So why Steam is bad? Games - check, multiple languages - check (minus ubisoft, but they like to chew glue, just remember their "fight with piracy", add that they are EA's stooges, and you'll get the picture), ability to gift games to people, at least within same region - check (Bethesda does not allow that, for example, good luck gifting Skyrim to your local friend). Yeah, Steam support require 2-3 weeks to reply to you, moreover, if you're asking help for third-party title, they will respond automatically, prompting you to contact relevant support first. But should it fail, they will reply and will try to help. You know, Steam doesn't have moneyback policy, but when I got problem with one title there and asked Steam for help, they returned me money without me asking for it. And there are even free games too. Not at regular intervals, but hey, free.

So comparing services provided by Steam and origin, I'd say Steam beats origin hands down, blindfolded, up in the waist in cold water, upside down, with dead fish in its mouth. But I'm happy origin works for you. Hope you're happy with it, in context or not. ;)
Post edited December 22, 2014 by RudyLis
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Siannah: People reselling = less sales for Steam = less profit for Steam = not capitalistic.
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Siannah: Free market = other competitors. You DON'T want your customers turn into competitors in a capitalistic system.
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Siannah: Region lock - please check about the grey market and how it is handled in non-gaming businesses. Exactly the same way. Capitalism.
I'm afraid you don't quite know or are confusing notions like "free market", "capital", "capitalism" etc
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darthspudius: You could you honestly imagine the shit that would happen if people could resell games? It would make a complete and utter joke of every sale they ever had.
You mean they'd have to deal with the realities of a free market? Say it isn't so! How dare I want Steam to have to compete fairly instead of hiding behind a wall of socialism and denying the chance for competitors to fairly compete with them!

Physical copies deal with this all the time; never did this weaken the market. Most console games still are primarily physical. Are you even trying to debate at this point? You're just regurgitating points that have already been defeated.

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Siannah: People reselling = less sales for Steam = less profit for Steam = not capitalistic.
You do realize that the free market and other competitors is the very essence of capitalism, right?
Free market = other competitors. You DON'T want your customers turn into competitors in a capitalistic system.
Region lock - please check about the grey market and how it is handled in non-gaming businesses. Exactly the same way. Capitalism.
Please, go read Wealth of Nations. Get an idea of what capitalism even is before you start talking about it.

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jdsgn: You say that Steam offers not an appropriate support. In how far is that?
They don't have a support number or even a chat. The only way to get "support" is to go on the forums and hope that the game developers are active in the community or that it's a widespread and known issue amongst the community.
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RudyLis: Does it matter how fast origin tech support reply will be if it's still useless?
What an banal statement. Well no, not perhaps banal as much as fanatical. A genuine card carrying Steam cult member.

If this and if that. Well, you can assume and suppose as much as you want. Have at it.

EA/Origin tech support is fine, and reasonably fast. Steam has no tech support. No. Tech. Support. At. All.

You rent it, you're responsible for running it. Which is quite a douchebag move for a renting service like steam.

There's no money back guaranteed policy, like Origin or gog.com offer. Only an idiot gives his money to a renting service like steam and hopes that if there is a problem that steam will be so kind as to refund that rental.

Fuck steam.
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MarioFanaticXV: You mean they'd have to deal with the realities of a free market? Say it isn't so! How dare I want Steam to have to compete fairly instead of hiding behind a wall of socialism and denying the chance for competitors to fairly compete with them!
Faulty logic. One competitor competing with themselves. The russian version of Steam with the rest of the world Steam.

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MarioFanaticXV: Physical copies deal with this all the time; never did this weaken the market. Most console games still are primarily physical. Are you even trying to debate at this point? You're just regurgitating points that have already been defeated.
Again, faulty logic. Physical copies have additionally to deal with shipping / handling and customs duties.

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MarioFanaticXV: You do realize that the free market and other competitors is the very essence of capitalism, right?
I pointed out the fault in your quote. You see it?

Region lock - please check about the grey market and how it is handled in non-gaming businesses. Exactly the same way. Capitalism.
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MarioFanaticXV: Please, go read Wealth of Nations. Get an idea of what capitalism even is before you start talking about it.
I certainly won't. How much Mr. Smith's philosophy still applies for it is something, you can discuss with the experts in that field.

However, you simply can't deny that region locks are widespread in our current global economy, that it's not coming from the gaming business and that it also applies to the physical dominated console market. Nor that it's been invented for one reason only - maximising profit. You may call that however you wish, I'll continue to call it capitalism. ;)
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MarioFanaticXV: Except Steam doesn't exist within a truly capitalist system. If it did, people would be able to resell the games they've bought. Steam is quite the enemy of capitalism, and quite the enemy of customer rights. Also, if this was about capitalism, they'd allow the free market to compete against them, instead of locking games to specified regions. If they want to have regional pricing? I'm fine with that- but they should have to deal with the reality of sellers buying from those regions and selling to others. They're making a profit off of this, why can't the Russians? There's something ironic when Russia is more capitalist, free, and pro-consumer than a company founded in the US.

Also, manual patches are a good thing. There are many times where a patch will break a game, and thus you would want to revert to an earlier patch (trust me, I'm having a lot of troubles with reverting Command & Conquer 3 to an earlier patch right now).

And are you seriously implying that physical discs are a down side?
Fun fact is, that I'm basically done with PC gaming now, as it turned into some sort of "cloud gaming" aka "Internet rentals". Of course, they made the transition very slowly to scare no-one away, but at some point it's time to draw the line.

Back in the 90s PC gaming had its unique advantages: No hassle with modules or discs: just copy the games onto your hard drive and access them instantly. A lot of hardware options and cheap accessories. The games were better, too. Of course there were some disadvantages like complex configuration and higher game prices (console games happened to be cheaper ages ago). But it was worth it.

Nowadays hardware choices are limited to just two vendors for each central component, quality accessories are even more expensive (or complete unusable trash). And you are expected to pay for and download the assets and log into the game developers servers to run the game logic there. The latter BTW isn't PC gaming by definition, because the game doesn't run on your PC anymore. It's server/cloud gaming.

Together with cloud gaming the "INSERT COIN" of the arcade age is back, of course. Now it's just online, but it's the same concept. And a new generation of gamers may be fine with it. But I'm not moving back to the stone age of gaming before the advent of home computers. So I'm finished with new games now. :-)
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MarioFanaticXV: You mean they'd have to deal with the realities of a free market? Say it isn't so! How dare I want Steam to have to compete fairly instead of hiding behind a wall of socialism and denying the chance for competitors to fairly compete with them!
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Siannah: Faulty logic. One competitor competing with themselves. The russian version of Steam with the rest of the world Steam.

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MarioFanaticXV: Physical copies deal with this all the time; never did this weaken the market. Most console games still are primarily physical. Are you even trying to debate at this point? You're just regurgitating points that have already been defeated.
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Siannah: Again, faulty logic. Physical copies have additionally to deal with shipping / handling and customs duties.

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MarioFanaticXV: You do realize that the free market and other competitors is the very essence of capitalism, right?
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Siannah: I pointed out the fault in your quote. You see it?

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MarioFanaticXV: Please, go read Wealth of Nations. Get an idea of what capitalism even is before you start talking about it.
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Siannah: I certainly won't. How much Mr. Smith's philosophy still applies for it is something, you can discuss with the experts in that field.

However, you simply can't deny that region locks are widespread in our current global economy, that it's not coming from the gaming business and that it also applies to the physical dominated console market. Nor that it's been invented for one reason only - maximising profit. You may call that however you wish, I'll continue to call it capitalism. ;)
How in the world did you get 943 rep with such blatant and unashamed trolling? Are you even reading my posts before responding to them? Just answer me that, are you actually reading my posts?
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MarioFanaticXV: How in the world did you get 943 rep with such blatant and unashamed trolling? Are you even reading my posts before responding to them? Just answer me that, are you actually reading my posts?
Rep is a beast in itself that I won't touch here, apart from that it certainly doesn't prove anything. Not for me, you or anyone else.

As far as my reading skills goes, yes I do read before I post. It's rather hard to not read when one uses several quotes from others posts. Though reading your posts and agreeing with them, is not a given (and yes, that works against me as well).

You talk about other competitors. Even though you're aware, that being able to buy / gift copies on the russian Steam store vs other Steam stores is NOT another competitor.
You compare it with physical copies. But if you're comparing buying on a russian digital distribution site vs buying a russian physical copy then yes, you have to add in shipping / handling and custom duties. Which you conveniently forgot.
The grey market is there, as much as actions from companies (with physical products where Mr. Smith's rule certainyl apply) against it is. An Adams Smith nowadays would maybe disapprove of that, but that doesn't change the current situation. Yet you skip it as if it's not a thing.
... and then you accuse me of blatant and unashamed trolling.... I certainly have a different point of view then you do, but that doesn't equal in trolling. The fact that you barely touched my points apart from pointing at Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations (where he couldn't foresee the digital age and it's implications on the market) and blame me of trolling, certainly doesn't speak up to your debating skills, Sir.
Post edited December 22, 2014 by Siannah
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Siannah: Free market = other competitors. You DON'T want your customers turn into competitors in a capitalistic system.
I'd like to pop in and point out that Steam even encourages indie devs to go to other platforms than Steam. (Like, for instance, this quote:
8. Do you require exclusivity for titles you sell on Steam?

We think you should get your game in front of as many people as you can, therefore we do not require exclusivity on titles.)
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MarioFanaticXV: Except Steam doesn't exist within a truly capitalist system. If it did, people would be able to resell the games they've bought. Steam is quite the enemy of capitalism, and quite the enemy of customer rights. Also, if this was about capitalism, they'd allow the free market to compete against them, instead of locking games to specified regions. If they want to have regional pricing? I'm fine with that- but they should have to deal with the reality of sellers buying from those regions and selling to others. They're making a profit off of this, why can't the Russians? There's something ironic when Russia is more capitalist, free, and pro-consumer than a company founded in the US.
Let me get this straight:

You feel that if steam blocks people from buying Russian steam keys, and selling them globally that they are blocking the free market competition? If the Russians want to compete with steam, they need to start up their own digital distribution system, and sell the same games cheaper - that would be competition.

Someone reselling steam keys isn't competition, regardless of where they buy the keys or how much they sell them for.

I'm no lover of steam, but I understand that Valve is in business to make money. If they want to implement regional pricing and regional locks, there's nothing saying they can't.

I'm still not quite sure what the uproar is about. Are people just pissed off because they can't buy cheap Russian keys?
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hummer010: Are people just pissed off because they can't buy cheap Russian keys?
That's pretty much the gist of it, yeah. I can see why some people are legitimately annoyed at this, but by and large the outrage seems to come from people thinking that they have a God-given right to use the grey market to profit off of cheap keys in foreign countries.
Post edited December 23, 2014 by rampancy
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rampancy: That's pretty much the gist of it, yeah. I can see why some people are legitimately annoyed at this, but by and large the outrage seems to come from people thinking that they have a God-given right to use the grey market to profit off of cheap keys in foreign countries.
There is no "grey market", it's a free globalized market. We just see corporations abusing DRM to erect artificial barriers.
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rampancy: That's pretty much the gist of it, yeah. I can see why some people are legitimately annoyed at this, but by and large the outrage seems to come from people thinking that they have a God-given right to use the grey market to profit off of cheap keys in foreign countries.
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jtsn: There is no "grey market", it's a free globalized market. We just see corporations abusing DRM to erect artificial barriers.
that is nothing new
dvd's and blu rays have been doing the same thing with their region locks
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MarioFanaticXV: Digital distribution has always been a way to attempt to impose an artificial monopoly- an attack on property rights and the secondhand market. Amongst the video game industry, probably no company has done as much damage as Valve has, practically killing off PC gaming and relegating it to something that people can only find downloads of, offering no proper tech support for the games they host, and constantly churning out cheap Doom clone after cheap Doom clone... And a rehash of a WarCraft III mod.

But today, they've hit a new low; so fearful are they of free market competition that they no longer will allow cross region trading for new purchases. Their greed has reached the point that- even within their own barbed-wire fence- they will no longer allow people from different regions to gift games to each other. If you're a fan of Steam, you're encouraged to hate anyone that's from another country, as you are no longer allowed to trade with them, as though your countries were at war and had embargoes against one another.

Source: http://www.steamgifts.com/forum/iuG5O/all-games-are-now-region-locked/page/1
Must be this wonderful "globalization" I hear so much praise about...