I wish there were more games like Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines and on that note...

Dear game developers,
Not every roleplaying game needs to be set in the far future or in a Tolkien-esque medieval world.

Your friend,
NoNewTaleToTell

Oh yes! But please in working condition on release!

To make it worse, the games have mechanics that reward the extremes and punish any player who wishes to play a more natural or interesting character and EVERY "decision" in the game has to provide options clearly belonging to one of the extremes. You *need* to either be a saint or an utter asshole for a good character build, whether it's KotOR, Jade Empire or Mass Effect. To make it worse, the social skills in Mass Effect are functionally identical. I think in each situation the same level of either skill will resolve it peacefully and provide the same or very similar reward, just accompanied by a different piece of dialogue (not sure it's the same in ME2 and 3, also don't know how it works in Dragon Age). With BioWare you basically have to make *one* decision, the moment you start playing, and from that moment on it's a linear path.

On top of that each of the games provides a similar set of characters and the same basic plot structure. Hero belonging to some elite group, an early cataclysm, that one traitor character etc..

Frankly I don't feel that there is a "we're so edgy" thing. I think it's just that the moment you add this kind of content to a game people start looking for intentions beyond regular design goals, mainly because there's still few games that touch sexuality in a realistic mannter or which dare to depict nudity. And the moment you stand out this way you will underline that your game provides this kind of content. Even if it was a genuine creative decision with no strings attached.

Also I thought that the "sex cards" were a clever, if controversial, feature invented to conform with Geralt's lifestyle as established in the books (and who'd blame him? he's immune to STDs and sterile so he can do it as much as he wants without facing any consequences... except maybe a jealous girlfriend). Players made Geralt bang everything with breasts for a small sexual sensation delivered via erotic drawings that also kinda represent memories or souvenirs. In a weird way this made casual sex in The Witcher 1 kinda authentic, the players' motivations to have sex with as many characters as possible were in a certain sense similar to those of the character who's actually having sex.

Oh yeah, I remember trying to do a neutral run of KOTOR. The game just constantly punished me for trying. And if you don't stick to being constantly the same in Mass Effect series, there are dialogue choices which are rightout unavailible to you, at least in the second game and I think I've seen one of those in ME3 as well.

Oh there is. Yeah, Geralt was a womanizer in the books, but not nearly as madly as in the first game. Second goes a long way in remedying that - still, I feel that sometimes, the game uses insults, quasi-philosophy, sex and violence in ... Let's say not particularily refined way. But eh, that might be just me.

Same here, same here.

To be fair, neither did he kill as many people and monsters in the books nor did he do as much sidequesting. Also he wasn't a kleptomaniac nor did he have a gambling addiction. I think the way the womanizing thing was blown up was adequate to how everything else had to be extended for a video game.

Nah, I know what you mean. I haven't beaten the whole second game, yet (currently near the end of chapter 2), but to be honest I think the content has gotten a lot worse and I blame it on a) the game having been written in English first and b) the devs trying to conform with industry standards / reacting to the broadest criticism on the first game.

The Polish version of the first game felt perfect. The dialogue wasn't quite on the same level as in the books but it *felt* worthy of its book origins. Yes there was an insane amount of cursing but it felt natural, "that's just the way people talk". It would sometimes make me laugh but never irritate me. Then Witcher 2 came, it was written in English and translated into Polish. In the second game the language suddenly irritates me, the talk generally doesn't feel as "old" anymore, more like regular modern talk with a few old terms thrown in. And somehow a lot of the cursing feels forced and unnecessary. If that's how I feel about the Polish version I don't wanna know the English or German ones.

Nice chart. I still love to play bioware games and I agree with OP, I would like to have more games like witcher series with gray decisions and as normal humans, you behave differently according to situations but I don't like the over use of cuss words and sex scenes in them. I don't feel that this adds anything to the mature environment of the game.

Hm while i really like both games i'd still choose Mass Effect over The Witcher anytime. And i don't really see a huge difference in maturity between those two, its just the setting that leaves room for some more ambiguous choices in The Witcher id say. There was silly stuff in both games... and i don't actually remember any "hard" decisions in TW either (well, i mainly play as the good guy anyway, so opinions might differ)
But even if Biowares characters are often cliched, i still remember every one of them pretty well, better than any side characters in the Witcher, and I've played that one more recently ;)
While the overarching story in ME might be the "save the world" stuff, i think they still deserve a lot of credit for the world they created. I also liked that it could have easily been a Star Wars-like setting (and in parts it is) but they actually went into "real" scifi territory at times. Also *mild spoilers, in case anyone hasn't played ME3 yet* i really liked the ending. The game world isn't the same anymore and i guess thats why ill be curious about how they will continue with a 4th part.

DA2 on the other hand was completely awful, i hope they won't continue in that direction. Although the 3rd part doesn't look very interesting to me either, so far.

tl;dr: Both have their strong points, i don't mind new games in either direction. Or more Deus Ex, BG, Planescape Torment or Alpha Protocoll, it would be boring if everyone did the same stuff...

Well, the Witcher is something else entirely! Something new, too! Inspiration and talent combined and united, created a unique masterpiece of legendary proportions. Wisdom of the developers also confirm that for its case, it was NEVER about stupid go lucky, or safe bets (adult and mature themes are NEVER safe bets, safe by ANY standard or interpretation...). Wisdom like closing the series (at least for the time being), at the highest peak of its course! Wisdom like the DRM policy (lack of it, of course), the helload of extras, the continued support, the free giveaway of dlcs and updates (which other title/company, especially MODERN title/company, gifts the newer/game of the year/enhanced edition, to all those people who purchased the simple one game first? you have to rebuy it), the gifts of digital copies by code redemption; shall i keep babbling??

It is a multilevel success, a multilevel successful and endearing policy, not only a high quality game, a triple A title. The Witcher would be halfway down, or even bottom deep, if it hadn't been for the triple A services, love and dedication, from the people who worked and still work on it, towards the fan and player bases!

Bioware started well, progressed even better, then it became a boring serial. Personally, after Infinity engine, i never touched anything else of Bioware, thereafter, even to present. I watched gameplay videos and read reviews about Dragon Age and Mass Effect, but to be honest, i wasn't even considering to touch them, after the material i saw about them. I am a retromaniac, also, plus a nostalgia freak, so my opinion would be highly invalid and maybe offensive. To me, the Witcher felt even better than ALL bioware RPGs combined, present and past. And i fully agree and consent to, this thread's title. It represents me and my opinion, fully.

Which term do you guys think you use more often, "mature" or "elitist"? And which one smacks more of desperation?

"Fart".
Hehehe, fart.

I wish more games were like Icewind Dale... u.u

What I really enjoy about Icewind Dale 1 is that you have complete control over developing a 6 man party, but you can't really screw it up in a way that's irreversible. After character creation your guys mostly just function as slots for equipment (attributes don't increase, no skill tree...), so you can always change them on the fly. Makes for a lot of room for experimentation.

Edit: Oh, and of course deciding which spells to equip. The AD&D 2 ruleset seems such a good fit for CRPGs.