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The motherboard's actually a relatively weak chipset (H67) and could be improved upon. The P67 or Z68 chipsets are much better. MSI makes some nice P67 motherboards.

The "K" model CPUs are overclockable. You neither need nor want to overclock if this is your first do-it-yourself build. Unless the 2500K is not more expensive than the 2500 or 2400, take a step down.

Don't mate G.Skill RAM with MSI motherboards at present. This particular combination has been the source of a lot of trouble. Get another reasonably priced make of RAM, like Corsair Vengeance, instead. Try to get 2x4GB if you can, especially with 64-bit Windows.

The place you can save the most money is on the GPU. The 560Ti isn't for budget builds. I'm not even sure about it on a decent 520W power supply.

Back off to the nVidia 550Ti or AMD 6870 instead. Especially if you do not require best performance at full resolution.

You also need a Windows license. Unless you have a retail copy that you can transfer, there's another $99 for 64-bit Windows 7 Home Premium.
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jefequeso: Anyone have any feedback on how this could be improved (cheapened)?
Personally I'd rather invest a bit more and get 2x4 GB RAM instead of 2x2, and a mainboard with a Z68 chipset (the H67 chipset won't allow you to overclock the CPU, which means wasted potential considering how easily the Sandy Bridge CPUs overclock). But if that's beyond your budget, lets see ... I see several ways of bringing the cost further down, though I'm not sure if you'll like them:

1. The i5 2500K CPU makes no sense on a mainboard that can't overclock. Either get an i5 2500 (without the "K") instead - wait. The link and the price you posted already point to the latter CPU. Okay. Scratch that.

2. Downgrade the graphics card to a 560 (without the Ti) for 170 $. Performance will be slower than with the 560 Ti, but will still be pretty good, and you'll save 65 $. However, you said that you don't want to reduce the graphics card, so probably scratch that too.

3. Downgrade to an i3 2120 CPU for 128 $. Performance will be noticeably less good than with the i5, but still decent (most games don't even use more than 2 cores), but you'll save 82 $, which is substantial.

4. Re-use your old hard drive in the new computer, don't get a new one. I'm not sure if it's really an option and you may end up having to uninstall older games frequently, but you'll save 110 $, and you should be able to buy a bigger HD for much less money in a year or so.

5. You probably could squeeze 10$ each out of the mainboard, case, and PSU, but it's probably not worth it. The PSU is a good choice and skimping on the PSU could easily bite you in the ass later. The mainboard looks a bit expensive for an H67 chipset, but I haven't monitored the mobo prices lately.
New build:

Took the graphics card and CPU down lower, but improved the motherboard. How important is it to have a good motherboard?

Unfortunately, reusing my old harddrive isn't an option.


CPU: Intel Core i3-2120 Sandy Bridge [$130]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115077

Motherboard: MSI P67A-G45 [$140]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130582

RAM: CORSAIR Vengeance 4GB [$25]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145346

GPU: GIGABYTE GV-N550D5-1GI GeForce GTX 550 Ti [$120]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125410

Case: Thermaltake V3 Black Edition [$45]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133094

Power Supply: Antec NEO ECO 520C 520W [$60]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371030

Harddrive: Seagate Barracuda ST31000524AS [$110]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148697

Optical Drive: ASUS 24X DVD Burner [$22]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204

Operating System: Windows 7 Home Premium [$100]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116986

TOTAL: $752




EDIT: also, I didn't check to see if any of the new parts conflicted.
Post edited March 12, 2012 by jefequeso
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jefequeso: New build:

Took the graphics card and CPU down lower, but improved the motherboard. How important is it to have a good motherboard?
It's a good build imho, though the mainboard may require some further thought (see below). I don't know the prices on the US market and can't tell how good Newegg's prices are, but the composition of the build looks good.

With regard to mainboards: Even cheap mainboards get the job done pretty well by now. Mainboard price depends mainly on (a) chipset and (b) bells and whistles like additional controllers and connectors. It's okay to buy a cheap one if you know that you don't need the bells and whistles, the actual performance won't differ much.

Regarding chipsets, there are four which are worth a consideration in your situation:

H61 is a chipset for people who just want a system with the latest generation of Intel CPUs for the lowest possible possible. It offers no overclocking, no SATA 3.0, no RAID, and has limited upgrade capacity (only two memory banks in total), but it does get the job done, the speed difference to the more expensive boards is negligible as long as you don't overclock the others, and you can get a working board for a modern CPU for less than 60$. I wouldn't necessarily _recommend_ this chipset, but it's an option if the budget is limited.

H67 is a chipset for people who don't care about overclocking. It's most attractive for people who want to use the graphics chip that's integrated in the CPU, are on a tight budget, and want to retain some upgrade capabilities with regard to memory. It's probably not the best fit in your situation since you're using a discrete graphics card, and you can get a board that allows overclocking in the same price range.

P67 is a chipset for people who don't care about the graphics chip that's integrated in the CPU, and who want the possibility to overclock the CPU. It can't use the on-die GPU at all.

Z68 is a chipset that combines the strengths of the two previously mentioned, it allows overclocking and can make use of the on-die GPU. It can also switch between that GPU and your discrete graphics card, which sounds good in theory, but can be a hassle in practice (but you don't need to use this feature if you don't want to). Nevertheless, Z68 is the most evolved chipset in this group.

Apart from the chipset, the other main factor that raises mainboard prices is the amount of additional controllers. Decide if you need USB 3.0, Firewire, Bluetooth, surround sound, etc.

My advice is to decide which kinds of bells and whistles you need, then compare the prices of boards with different chipsets that have these bells and whistles, and then decide on a chipset.
Post edited March 12, 2012 by Psyringe
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jefequeso: Harddrive: Seagate Barracuda ST31000524AS [$110]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148697
I've heard Seagate has had some reliability issues lately, although they used to make quality products at some point. A friend of mine went through three Seagate HDDs in two years, which sounds pretty poor. Unsurprisingly Seagates also have the shortest warranty of all hard drives in my local computer store.

If you want to avoid Seagate, there's at least Samsung and Western Digital. As far as I know, WD is the bigger player in the business. Looking at the prices in the local computer store mentioned before, the Samsung SpinPoint is cheaper than the WD Caviar Black, but also has a shorter warranty (three versus five years). Either one should be a solid choice. Avoid the other two Caviars: first of all, the Green is cheaper, but it's strictly for storing files you don't access very often (so there are power-down features, longer loading times and such things you don't need on a primary HDD), and secondly, while the Blue is lower-performing and hence cheaper than the Black, it seems to have a shorter warranty as well.
From the start of this thread :

Youtube have a few videos on this - guides on building and cable management.

The Cable management is very useful - look for a case with Grommets is my advice like the Corsair 6000GT Graphite White, which has brilliant cable tidy abaility

Why is that important ? Air flow and cooling.

The Corsair H80 and H100 liquid cooling solutions seem quite viable but if its a first build for you it might be best to stick with aircooling.

My main priority is Board, CPU, Cooling and Power - the graphic card, HD and Memory can be interchanged quickly and cheeply, but spend that little bit more on the board and case if you can :-)
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delboy2k10: The Corsair H80 and H100 liquid cooling solutions seem quite viable but if its a first build for you it might be best to stick with aircooling.
Liquid cooling is a pain in the ass. Effective, yes, but too much of a hassle especially when you're trying to build a computer on a budget. You'd also have to buy a case that's compatible with radiators and piping – which admittedly aren't very hard to come by and not particularly expensive – but, worst of all, it hikes up the price as well.
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delboy2k10: The Corsair H80 and H100 liquid cooling solutions seem quite viable but if its a first build for you it might be best to stick with aircooling.
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AlKim: Liquid cooling is a pain in the ass. Effective, yes, but too much of a hassle especially when you're trying to build a computer on a budget. You'd also have to buy a case that's compatible with radiators and piping – which admittedly aren't very hard to come by and not particularly expensive – but, worst of all, it hikes up the price as well.
True. Or, in a few words, good liquid cooling is not cheap, and cheap liquid cooling is not good.

Unless you already know what you are doing, do not bother with anything but either stock cooling or the inexpensive big brute-force Coolermaster coolers.
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delboy2k10: The Corsair H80 and H100 liquid cooling solutions seem quite viable but if its a first build for you it might be best to stick with aircooling.
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AlKim: Liquid cooling is a pain in the ass. Effective, yes, but too much of a hassle especially when you're trying to build a computer on a budget. You'd also have to buy a case that's compatible with radiators and piping – which admittedly aren't very hard to come by and not particularly expensive – but, worst of all, it hikes up the price as well.
As stated its not recommended

However the HA80 and HA100 are not connected to pipes, they are self contained liquid coolers that combine liquid with 2 air fans that are attached to a roof grill in a case. Water cooling is a pain which is why I went for an Air case and recommended a good 1
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AlKim: Liquid cooling is a pain in the ass. Effective, yes, but too much of a hassle especially when you're trying to build a computer on a budget. You'd also have to buy a case that's compatible with radiators and piping – which admittedly aren't very hard to come by and not particularly expensive – but, worst of all, it hikes up the price as well.
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delboy2k10: As stated its not recommended

However the HA80 and HA100 are not connected to pipes, they are self contained liquid coolers that combine liquid with 2 air fans that are attached to a roof grill in a case.
It still looks like overkill for a $600 gaming PC unless you're going to overclock the living shit out of it. I'm sure a cheap fan-on-a-heatsink-tower such as the Coolermaster Hyper TX3 or Scythe Katana 3 will be sufficient here, or perhaps no special cooling at all.
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delboy2k10: As stated its not recommended


However the HA80 and HA100 are not connected to pipes, they are self contained liquid coolers that combine liquid with 2 air fans that are attached to a roof grill in a case.
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AlKim: It still looks like overkill for a $600 gaming PC unless you're going to overclock the living shit out of it. I'm sure a cheap fan-on-a-heatsink-tower such as the Coolermaster Hyper TX3 or Scythe Katana 3 will be sufficient here, or perhaps no special cooling at all.
Exactly - your spot on

Which is why the case mentioned is called a Maximum Air case

I use Spectre Pro fans personally in my case (very silent) (Bitfenix) and Phantex CPU coolers

Coolermaster are brilliant also

As long as its silent and cools the chip down its fine - but always remember to be future proof as possible - hence the case and fans suggestions
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jefequeso: New build:

Took the graphics card and CPU down lower, but improved the motherboard. How important is it to have a good motherboard?
avatar
Psyringe: It's a good build imho, though the mainboard may require some further thought (see below). I don't know the prices on the US market and can't tell how good Newegg's prices are, but the composition of the build looks good.

With regard to mainboards: Even cheap mainboards get the job done pretty well by now. Mainboard price depends mainly on (a) chipset and (b) bells and whistles like additional controllers and connectors. It's okay to buy a cheap one if you know that you don't need the bells and whistles, the actual performance won't differ much.

Regarding chipsets, there are four which are worth a consideration in your situation:

H61 is a chipset for people who just want a system with the latest generation of Intel CPUs for the lowest possible possible. It offers no overclocking, no SATA 3.0, no RAID, and has limited upgrade capacity (only two memory banks in total), but it does get the job done, the speed difference to the more expensive boards is negligible as long as you don't overclock the others, and you can get a working board for a modern CPU for less than 60$. I wouldn't necessarily _recommend_ this chipset, but it's an option if the budget is limited.

H67 is a chipset for people who don't care about overclocking. It's most attractive for people who want to use the graphics chip that's integrated in the CPU, are on a tight budget, and want to retain some upgrade capabilities with regard to memory. It's probably not the best fit in your situation since you're using a discrete graphics card, and you can get a board that allows overclocking in the same price range.

P67 is a chipset for people who don't care about the graphics chip that's integrated in the CPU, and who want the possibility to overclock the CPU. It can't use the on-die GPU at all.

Z68 is a chipset that combines the strengths of the two previously mentioned, it allows overclocking and can make use of the on-die GPU. It can also switch between that GPU and your discrete graphics card, which sounds good in theory, but can be a hassle in practice (but you don't need to use this feature if you don't want to). Nevertheless, Z68 is the most evolved chipset in this group.

Apart from the chipset, the other main factor that raises mainboard prices is the amount of additional controllers. Decide if you need USB 3.0, Firewire, Bluetooth, surround sound, etc.

My advice is to decide which kinds of bells and whistles you need, then compare the prices of boards with different chipsets that have these bells and whistles, and then decide on a chipset.
With my current "machine," I'm just thankful if I can get anything post 2003 to run PERIOD, much less with decent visuals. I don't even know what exactly overclocking is, much less have the desire to do it. So ringing and whistling isn't really necessary. As long as it won't cause a performance bottleneck or keep games from running, it sounds like I'll be perfectly happy with a cheap motherboard. I'll probably go for a H67, as per your suggestion.

EDIT: oops, misread. You DON'T recommend the H67

hmm... well, I'm strongly considering just getting the H61... but it seems that would severely limit my expansion options in the future, yes?

And it does make me feel tons better to hear that the build isn't crap.
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jefequeso: Harddrive: Seagate Barracuda ST31000524AS [$110]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148697
avatar
AlKim: I've heard Seagate has had some reliability issues lately, although they used to make quality products at some point. A friend of mine went through three Seagate HDDs in two years, which sounds pretty poor. Unsurprisingly Seagates also have the shortest warranty of all hard drives in my local computer store.

If you want to avoid Seagate, there's at least Samsung and Western Digital. As far as I know, WD is the bigger player in the business. Looking at the prices in the local computer store mentioned before, the Samsung SpinPoint is cheaper than the WD Caviar Black, but also has a shorter warranty (three versus five years). Either one should be a solid choice. Avoid the other two Caviars: first of all, the Green is cheaper, but it's strictly for storing files you don't access very often (so there are power-down features, longer loading times and such things you don't need on a primary HDD), and secondly, while the Blue is lower-performing and hence cheaper than the Black, it seems to have a shorter warranty as well.
Ooh... that is not good. HD failure = D:. I'll hunt around for another HD then. The HD isn't too much of a concern, though... as I said, I won't be buying this stuff probably until summer, so prices/products may vary. It's stuff like the GPU that I want to get nailed down, since my eyes usually start glazing over when I see "Nvidia XL354-4RF Sim #78 Delta Alpha Foxtrot Bravo MLA 3546723-!674583_RT" or stuff like that.


@Liquid Cooling O_o You think I'm some kind of mad scientist??? ;)
Post edited March 12, 2012 by jefequeso
So, here's the motherboard I'm thinking of:

Motherboard: ASRock H61M-VS [$50]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157241

and the better harddrive

Harddrive: Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS [$130]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136284

Which lowers the price now to $682.

I should ask... how much do you think prices WILL fluctuate from now until summer?
Hard drive prices will probably come down a bit over the next few months as the availability starts to pick up again.

The motherboard you suggest is OK, but leaves little room for upgrading in the future. If you think you will be happy with your PC for the next 3-4 years or so, then it'll be fine. If you're likely to want to tinker with it every year, then I'd suggest one with SATA 3.0 (6Gb/s) and USB 3.0. as they're likely to come in handy in a bit (but only if you like tinkering).

With motherboards, you tend to pay more for more PCI-Express sockets. The average user will only need one 16x socket (for the graphics card), any ohers can be 1x for general stuff.

I would definitely recommend lots of RAM, but my definition of "lots of RAM" is about 4Gb, anything after that is overkill for everyday use.

Western Digital make awesome hard drives, the Caviar Black looks great :)

The one thing I definitely wouldn't skimp on is the Power Supply - if it goes, it can take everything else with it! The Antec one you linked to looks fine.

What OS are you planning on using? You didn't mention it in your list, so that may add to the cost if you don't have a previous copy of Windows.

Edit - since you mentioned the graphics card, one thing I will say is that the GPU generation is less important now than it used to be. A high-end card from 3 years ago will still out-perform a low-end card from a newer generation today (e.g. a 280 card will way-outperform a 520). For nvidia, the first digit is the generation number, and the last 2 digits are the model in that generation. So 560 = Series 5, Card 60.
Post edited March 12, 2012 by Irenaeus.
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Irenaeus.: Hard drive prices will probably come down a bit over the next few months as the availability starts to pick up again.

The motherboard you suggest is OK, but leaves little room for upgrading in the future. If you think you will be happy with your PC for the next 3-4 years or so, then it'll be fine. If you're likely to want to tinker with it every year, then I'd suggest one with SATA 3.0 (6Gb/s) and USB 3.0. as they're likely to come in handy in a bit (but only if you like tinkering).

With motherboards, you tend to pay more for more PCI-Express sockets. The average user will only need one 16x socket (for the graphics card), any ohers can be 1x for general stuff.

I would definitely recommend lots of RAM, but my definition of "lots of RAM" is about 4Gb, anything after that is overkill for everyday use.

Western Digital make awesome hard drives, the Caviar Black looks great :)

The one thing I definitely wouldn't skimp on is the Power Supply - if it goes, it can take everything else with it! The Antec one you linked to looks fine.

What OS are you planning on using? You didn't mention it in your list, so that may add to the cost if you don't have a previous copy of Windows.

Edit - since you mentioned the graphics card, one thing I will say is that the GPU generation is less important now than it used to be. A high-end card from 3 years ago will still out-perform a low-end card from a newer generation today (e.g. a 280 card will way-outperform a 520). For nvidia, the first digit is the generation number, and the last 2 digits are the model in that generation. So 560 = Series 5, Card 60.
So would you recommend that I hunt up a cheap 2XX card instead of the one I currently have? Or is that going to start causing other problems?

OS = Windows 7. It should be listed on my second build list.