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jdsgn: I see, you've dived way deeper into the rule set than I have ^^

Constitution beyond 7 is useless??? That renders 3 of my Icewind Dale character builds useless. And what do these 18/?? mean?
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etb: My bad, what I meant is that all the values between 7 to 14 (not 15 probably) have the same (lack of) effect. So it means that a character with 7 or 14 of constitution is pretty much the same. Of course in Ice Wind Dale it means: Constitution must be 16 for all characters (+2 PF/level), 18 for Fighters (+4 PF/level). Once again, a special rule for someone...

Seriously, in this games I use editors to fix the values to make them meaningful.


Fighters classes have a special second value for Strength if they have 18: a number between 1 to 100, and the bonus tyouhey have with 91-99 or 100 is so powerful that makes any other possibility pretty much a bad idea. It is written like 18/91 or 19/00.
Oh okay, in that case it's okay, my character builds have more than 14 constitution. Can you recommend a specific editor?

Thanks for helping me out with your D&D-wisdom! (;
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jdsgn: Oh okay, in that case it's okay, my character builds have more than 14 constitution. Can you recommend a specific editor?

Thanks for helping me out with your D&D-wisdom! (;
Use your google-fu :) HERE: Editors I think I used Dale Keeper at the time, but honestly I hardly remember.

It is a very touchy topic, but personally I never felt as cheating to change the characteristics to reasonable values in the begin of the game and that's it. Usually it means having quite high values, but rules pretty much impose it.

Check this webpage, (look for "Table 1") to see the bonuses of the various values.
http://www.seads.org/TSR/phbbk.htm

You will notice that in most cases between 8 and 14 there is no difference. It means that throwing the dice naturally in almost all cases you have no effects.

You can even laugh at the example!

Strength 8 (useless, no real effect)
Dexterity 14 (looks big, but no effect)
Constitution 13 (no real effects)
Intelligence 13 (too low to be a Wizard, no real effect otherwise)
Wisdom 7 (AN EFFECT! -1 TO SOME SAVING THROWS!)
Charisma 6 (few effects with henchmen, does not apply to a videogame)

No... really... Sure they make a nice sounding description, but the rules should have some kind of relation with the description. From this point of view the 3rd edition is much better.
Post edited December 30, 2014 by etb
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RavenFB: Pretty much every game with the same premise as Wing Commander: Privateer that has come out after it. All of them have promised great things, but none of them have managed to deliver and experience that is as good as, let alone overshadows, Privateer. Yes, it is my favorite game of all time... but I am being fair, here. I still play the game regularly, so I'm not looking through "nostalgia goggles". Of course, the biggest disappointment of all was Privateer 2, since it was supposed to be a direct sequel (not really), and got things all muddled up in the "open-world space sim" to "Wing Commander III/IV cinematics" ratio. I see games like Elite: Dangerous and Chris Robert's Star Citizen, and I cross my fingers... but I don't hold out much hope. It was Erin that made Privateer what it was. Chris was always the Wing Commander guy, it was his brother that seemed to make Priv something special. Only time will tell if something will ever truly compare with, or even outclass, my old favorite.
I agree with this. I have been waiting most of my life for the next WC:P to come out, but I'd be better off playing WC:P than the game when it does...
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viperfdl: In my opinion Mass Effect has an interesting story but the rest is just a bad shooter and a mediocre rpg.
But when considered as part of a trilogy, it's actually a pretty decent RPG. I liked how many of my choices were carried over from game to game and how important it was to play all of them in order to fully grasp the story and characters.
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jdsgn: Oh okay, in that case it's okay, my character builds have more than 14 constitution. Can you recommend a specific editor?

Thanks for helping me out with your D&D-wisdom! (;
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etb: Use your google-fu :) HERE: Editors I think I used Dale Keeper at the time, but honestly I hardly remember.

It is a very touchy topic, but personally I never felt as cheating to change the characteristics to reasonable values in the begin of the game and that's it. Usually it means having quite high values, but rules pretty much impose it.

Check this webpage, (look for "Table 1") to see the bonuses of the various values.
http://www.seads.org/TSR/phbbk.htm

You will notice that in most cases between 8 and 14 there is no difference. It means that throwing the dice naturally in almost all cases you have no effects.

You can even laugh at the example!

Strength 8 (useless, no real effect)
Dexterity 14 (looks big, but no effect)
Constitution 13 (no real effects)
Intelligence 13 (too low to be a Wizard, no real effect otherwise)
Wisdom 7 (AN EFFECT! -1 TO SOME SAVING THROWS!)
Charisma 6 (few effects with henchmen, does not apply to a videogame)

No... really... Sure they make a nice sounding description, but the rules should have some kind of relation with the description. From this point of view the 3rd edition is much better.
This example is quite... impressive.
If you say it's good, I'll go with Dale Keeper.
Thank you very much for helping me!
Every fallout game after Fallout 2 (for me the best game ever created, which I finished at least 15 times)!
So, Fallout Tactics (wrong concept, more fighting and less RPG-ing); Fallout 3 (if it was original Black Isle's game It would probably be as good as Fallout 2, but no, Bethesda had to go with their TES first person engine and ofcourse that made game into shooter and since it had to be multi-platform it was simplified to satisfy console-kid-gamers); Fallout New Vegas (nice try by Obsidian and Chris Avellone, but apparently they had to follow Bethesda's strict rules + engine and could change only few skills/traits/perks)

Then Mass Effect 2 + 3! Why? Because every game from Bioware before EA was a masterpiece in my oppinion (even Mass Effect 1; although it is essentially FPS, but RPG elements were satisfying and story and characters were memorable - e.g. conversation with Vigil AI (my favourite moment from Mass Effect 1)
But since EA came aboard games were simplifed, dulled down, RPG elements almost disappeared and story also got worse!

Dragon Age 2 + Inquisition! Same reason as above; EA + simplification + consolification + bad DRM!
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jdsgn: This example is quite... impressive.
If you say it's good, I'll go with Dale Keeper.
Thank you very much for helping me!
Always make a backup of your saves before modifying and nothing can really go wrong.
How about X-Com Apocalypse... a really great concept, an open-city X-Com game! Implementation, unfortunately, was somewhat slow and buggy with unrealized features, an overly small city, and an art style that just didn't work. Still a fun game, but even at the time it was easy to see shortcomings. A modern remake would probably be great.
Duke Nukem Forever...

(very personal description)

The Duke is back after years! The muscular geek that cannot keep a girl for more than 7 hours and loves to speak about about old movies and weapons is going to kick the ass of another race that wants to use human ladies for breeding...

I was expecting a 3 second introduction like:
--Duke is watching "They Live" (of course THAT SCENE) and the power goes out--,
--Duke is caressing his bottle of Jack when someone shut down his ride (not again!)--,
--Duke is watching a dancer at the club (why I cannot keep a girl more than one night?), when an explosion scares her--(*).
And just after a large level with bunches of hungry aliens to fight... ALL OF THEM! Come get some!

Heck, Serious Sam suggested the world how to make an FPS since 10 years! And there is Duke! What can possibly go wrong!


Or possibly, they will make a slightly more serious older Duke?!? The possibilities are limitless!


Reality arrives... the game was instead incredibly bad... no really, if you did not play it you have to try it to believe. Il is like the "Star Wars Holiday Special" you have to see it to believe how bad it is.
The Duke character become a parody of himself (seldom bordering the psychopathy), super easy gameplay, no health, no armors, incredibly narrow and tunnel-like levels, and... at most two weapons at time... Sigh :(


We need to make a game where Duke, Doomguy, and Stone work together against the mother of all asskicking.


Sigh... I go watching "They Live" again... :|


(*) Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkB43FHalAo
Post edited December 31, 2014 by etb
Latest SSX's choice toward more realistic physics and the wing suit implementation. If they had kept the physics similar to SSX tricky or on tour then it would have worked way better IMHO. I wish they had made some kind of wing suit only race mode somehow.
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anomaly: Hydrophobia: Prophecy should be here.

The game was definitely unfinished, as anyone who has played it will tell you. I enjoyed it, but it was frustrating seeing the very rough edges, poor level design and a story that was poorly thought out. It was about 2/3 of a game, which was a pity because I'd love to see a rebuild or a better sequel. Unlikely to happen in its current state though.
sounds like another "prophecy" game that also belongs in this list: Indigo Prophecy.
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anomaly: Hydrophobia: Prophecy should be here.

The game was definitely unfinished, as anyone who has played it will tell you. I enjoyed it, but it was frustrating seeing the very rough edges, poor level design and a story that was poorly thought out. It was about 2/3 of a game, which was a pity because I'd love to see a rebuild or a better sequel. Unlikely to happen in its current state though.
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paladin181: sounds like another "prophecy" game that also belongs in this list: Indigo Prophecy.
For every good idea there had to be 3 awful ones as part the "Bad Design Equity Program". However during said process the good ideas were never executed and the designer was then sacked
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Stevedog13: Diablo - A 2.5D isometric roguelike inspired game with real graphics! Awesome! My favorite genre is getting a face lift and joining the modern (well modern at that time) world. Nope. Just another mindless hack n' slash style button masher with some random elements thrown in. And thanks to the mouse driven "click on something to kill it" control scheme I didn't even have the option to plug in a gamepad and pretend it was Golden Axe or Gauntlet. I've been told that there are several different quests which are randomly assigned each play through, but I'll never know. I forced myself to finish the game then uninstalled it and gave the disc away. And again I realize that I'm in the minority on this one.
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cecil: I'd argue you made a point on why all 3 Diablo are so disappointing. You now can have a controller and wish you were playing golden axe instead and they even tried to up the action in the console releases of Diablo 3.
I remember the was a version of Diablo 1 for the original Playstation. I thought about getting a used copy and trying it out, but couldn't bring myself to do it. Besides all the issues I already gave, I didn't even find the gameplay all that interesting. The health and mana potions and the equipment degrade system were alright, but many other games do it better. I heard from lots of people that Diablo 2 was way better, but I think that basically meant the developers did more of the stuff I didn't like. I tried Torchlight for a bit, but still had most of the same issues.
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cecil: I'd argue you made a point on why all 3 Diablo are so disappointing. You now can have a controller and wish you were playing golden axe instead and they even tried to up the action in the console releases of Diablo 3.
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Stevedog13: I remember the was a version of Diablo 1 for the original Playstation. I thought about getting a used copy and trying it out, but couldn't bring myself to do it. Besides all the issues I already gave, I didn't even find the gameplay all that interesting. The health and mana potions and the equipment degrade system were alright, but many other games do it better. I heard from lots of people that Diablo 2 was way better, but I think that basically meant the developers did more of the stuff I didn't like. I tried Torchlight for a bit, but still had most of the same issues.
Ever tried Bastion? The art style and music are good but it still might be too simialr to Diablo or Torchlight for you.
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Stevedog13: I remember the was a version of Diablo 1 for the original Playstation. I thought about getting a used copy and trying it out, but couldn't bring myself to do it. Besides all the issues I already gave, I didn't even find the gameplay all that interesting. The health and mana potions and the equipment degrade system were alright, but many other games do it better. I heard from lots of people that Diablo 2 was way better, but I think that basically meant the developers did more of the stuff I didn't like. I tried Torchlight for a bit, but still had most of the same issues.
I, for some reason, enjoyed Diablo1 even if I was aware it was "just click until it dies with Fireball/Fireball/Whatever". Maybe it was the graphics that remembered me animated lead soldier or the music... I am not really sure.

I totally agree about Diablo2, I could not play longer than few hours.


About the topic, I cannot think a specific example right now, but lots of platform enter this category. There are few gems like the classic New Zealand Story or the (almost) new Serious Sam DD, but most of them fail at something.