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Ahh, more talk about the false dichotomy of democrats VS republicans as if, in the end, there really was any difference between the two.

Rich old folks, bailing out their banker and big business friends, pretending to cater to the people, both sides renewing tax cuts for the rich, no end to the occupation of Iraq, Patriot Act renewed regularly, both sides increasing the national debt with no regard for where the money is coming from.

But to hear these propagandists on both sides you'd think Bush and Obama couldn't be more different. Even this so-called socialized healthcare was a love letter to the insurance industry and would have been praised by the repubs if they had passed it.

If you've bought into this left VS right us VS them philosophy pushed by the propaganda machines on both sides, you've already lost, no matter which side you are on. Wake up.
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jeffreydean1: Ahh, more talk about the false dichotomy of democrats VS republicans as if, in the end, there really was any difference between the two.

Rich old folks, bailing out their banker and big business friends, pretending to cater to the people, both sides renewing tax cuts for the rich, no end to the occupation of Iraq, Patriot Act renewed regularly, both sides increasing the national debt with no regard for where the money is coming from.

But to hear these propagandists on both sides you'd think Bush and Obama couldn't be more different. Even this so-called socialized healthcare was a love letter to the insurance industry and would have been praised by the repubs if they had passed it.

If you've bought into this left VS right us VS them philosophy pushed by the propaganda machines on both sides, you've already lost, no matter which side you are on. Wake up.
Yes, but the americans already believe in that propaganda pushed by one side. At least faux would have to work harder if it had its equivalent lefty liberal media powerhouse competing with it. And to the guy that replied earlier , yes , it's not much different anywhere else in the world. It's all a scripted show, done deals for the next decades have already been signed, it's just a matter of selling that to the idiot public, which will swallow it if it's sugar coated enough. Problem is, if the american's blissful ignorance only affected them and not other countries that get invaded, it would be good.
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hedwards: The issue is the conservatives are more liable to be looking for an excuse not to accept that the world is changing than liberals are.
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StingingVelvet: From my independent perspective that's pretty spot-on actually, a good summary of current times.
Which makes it a really tough call. I personally converted over to swing voting several years back. I realized after 2004 that nobody actually cares about people who are perceived as being partisan when it comes to campaigning, but if you vote for the other side from time to time or every election, then suddenly they start paying attention.

It doesn't really make me much of an independent, because the Republican line on things like same sex rights and torture has been so absolutely repugnant, but McCain early in the 2008 primary season was really onto something to the extent that he got my vote at that point.

Couldn't vote for him in the final election because, quite frankly he didn't have any sort of plan for dealing with the mess. It wasn't an issue of disagreeing with his plans, he just didn't have any at all to vote on.

Personally, I'm a real fan of non-partisan or bipartisan districting and the top two primary. It's going to be a few years before we see what it does to our elections, but so far in every single case where to members of the same party have faced off the more moderate of the two candidates has won. I'm guessing that the trend will continue and we'll see a more purple WA government in the future.
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jeffreydean1: Ahh, more talk about the false dichotomy of democrats VS republicans as if, in the end, there really was any difference between the two.

Rich old folks, bailing out their banker and big business friends, pretending to cater to the people, both sides renewing tax cuts for the rich, no end to the occupation of Iraq, Patriot Act renewed regularly, both sides increasing the national debt with no regard for where the money is coming from.

But to hear these propagandists on both sides you'd think Bush and Obama couldn't be more different. Even this so-called socialized healthcare was a love letter to the insurance industry and would have been praised by the repubs if they had passed it.

If you've bought into this left VS right us VS them philosophy pushed by the propaganda machines on both sides, you've already lost, no matter which side you are on. Wake up.
I'm sorry but this is just political ennui. While I agree an "us vs. them" attitude is unhealthy in a democracy, to say there is no difference is to not be paying attention to the world around you. For instance, it is true that Democrats have no backbone in supporting liberalism. They went to a really good doctor in the eighties and had the spine removed from their party. This is why it always amuses me when I hear Republicans today claiming Democrats are more liberal now than they were in the 70s, which is the opposite of reality. The Democratic party today makes the old one look actually socialist - dirty dirty socialism! :) - by comparison. Democrats can also be corrupt - absolutely I can think of several Democratic senators and representatives who have been outright bribed never mind the casual corruption we take for granted called "campaign financing" which in almost any other line of work would be considered a huge conflict of interest.

That said, no difference between them and Republicans? So Democrats its true might capitulate on Federal funding for abortions, but they don't try to pass laws that call the murder of doctors who perform abortions legal justifiable homicide. Also don't forget that a lot of the most important social legislation when it passed was much less expansive than what it came to be - social security for instance was originally only for widows and some other restricted classification. It grew over time to be the retirement safety net that we then later took for granted, under-funded, and gutted for years. So I agree that the current health care bill is as about as good as the health care industry could've hoped for, but they still hate it because they see what it means for the future growth of the bill. It's also why the Republicans are so desperate to kill it before most of the major provisions kick in in 2014. Most of it hasn't even been implemented yet. So I'm sorry but there is a difference. I would've thought the kind of thinking ala "I didn't vote in 2000 because George Bush and Al Gore, the Republican and the Democrat, were the same" ... I would've thought recent history proved that kind of thinking so totally wrong ... Has Obama been perfect? No, but I can't help people expecting perfection. But the same as George Bush? ... no, really, no. I think since you're Canadian you're not quite as familiar with just how far to the right the Republicans really are ... do you think they are the equivalent of the Conservative party in Canada? Trust me, they aren't. They view your most extreme rightist conservatives as a bunch of dirty, dirty socialists. When your Canadian conservatives advocate legalizing the murder of doctors, then we'll talk about whether or not there is a difference between political parties.

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hedwards: I realized after 2004 that nobody actually cares about people who are perceived as being partisan when it comes to campaigning, but if you vote for the other side from time to time or every election, then suddenly they start paying attention.
Unfortunately even if you personally do swing voting they still won't care unless you live in a district, county, or state that swings. If you live in a conservative or liberal "bastion" then your vote is not as important as if you live in a 50-50 state regardless of what voting system you personally practice.

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hedwards: Personally, I'm a real fan of non-partisan or bipartisan districting and the top two primary. It's going to be a few years before we see what it does to our elections, but so far in every single case where to members of the same party have faced off the more moderate of the two candidates has won. I'm guessing that the trend will continue and we'll see a more purple WA government in the future.
Maybe but such systems also have their disadvantages. I too will be interested to see how it plays out in your state.

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Wishbone: /snip
True ... some of the quotes from P.T. Barnum come to mind. :)

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drmlessgames: Problem is, if the american's blissful ignorance only affected them and not other countries that get invaded, it would be good.
While I agree with this (and unfortunately kabuki politics seem to dominate in many cultures), the trouble is it has to be someone's idiots affecting the world stage ... The only two times you don't have idiots affecting the world stage are: 1) the country in prominence is not a democracy (not a good thing for anybody and definitely not a guarantee that idiots won't be in charge) 2) the democratic country has a hella good education system so that very few are ignorant of the world (very few countries, most of whom either extremely small/impotent or in the past when they were in power across the world behaved far worse than the US! and frankly even for a lot of these countries both large and small there are still a lot of very scary ignoramuses)
Post edited February 15, 2011 by crazy_dave
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jeffreydean1: Ahh, more talk about the false dichotomy of democrats VS republicans as if, in the end, there really was any difference between the two.

Rich old folks, bailing out their banker and big business friends, pretending to cater to the people, both sides renewing tax cuts for the rich, no end to the occupation of Iraq, Patriot Act renewed regularly, both sides increasing the national debt with no regard for where the money is coming from.

But to hear these propagandists on both sides you'd think Bush and Obama couldn't be more different. Even this so-called socialized healthcare was a love letter to the insurance industry and would have been praised by the repubs if they had passed it.

If you've bought into this left VS right us VS them philosophy pushed by the propaganda machines on both sides, you've already lost, no matter which side you are on. Wake up.
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drmlessgames: Yes, but the americans already believe in that propaganda pushed by one side. At least faux would have to work harder if it had its equivalent lefty liberal media powerhouse competing with it. And to the guy that replied earlier , yes , it's not much different anywhere else in the world. It's all a scripted show, done deals for the next decades have already been signed, it's just a matter of selling that to the idiot public, which will swallow it if it's sugar coated enough. Problem is, if the american's blissful ignorance only affected them and not other countries that get invaded, it would be good.
@ jeffreydean1: True, the OP sent a link to an article that shows that Fox News operates no differently from most Republicans in the White House, no differently than most Democrats in the White House, no differently from the hidden agenda driven CEO & CFO's of banks & big business, and even no differently from the constant misdirection, manipulation, and criminality of FBI agents.

But like the previous poster wrote, there is a big difference between Republicans & Democrats. Yes the people who say that their presidential candidates routinely act like puppets of big business certainly have truth in their claims, but lets also not forget that most wars have been started w/Republicans being in office. So as much as I don't trust and strongly hate Obama (a Democrat who operates the same way as Fox News), I was very glad that he won the '08 election, for the simple reason that I felt the occupation in Iraq had a better chance of ending w/him in office than w/McCain. And look at JFK, some of his moves before his death, and the circumstances around his death for further info on how different Democrats & Republicans can be. It's enough for even those w/a limited knowledge of American politics (like myself) to understand, as long as you use some critical thinking.

@ drmlessgames: Dude, ignorance bothers me as much as bothers you. But do you think that Americans who've fallen under Fox News' sway like having the wool pulled over their eyes? Do you think they're 'blissful' in their ignorance to their government's evils, what with their sons & daughters dying in multiple wars, their standard of life slowly being dropped to shit ever since the Iraq War started in '03, and shock of 9/11/01 still fresh in many people's systems?

Many Americans are ignorant about alot of things, but citing them as 'blissfully' ignorant is painting them in a light that simply isn't true. They aren't blissful about their ignorance, nor do they hate foreigners as much as yesteryear's folks have.

We'd do better if we saw them as victims, as much as the rest of the world is. Add to that, we'd do even better if we remembered to differentiate the American public from those who dominate the White House.
Post edited February 15, 2011 by bladeofBG
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bladeofBG: /snip
So I've always found it a bit odd when people criticize Obama and praise JFK (or FDR) in the same breath. Not that I think Obama is wonderful or JFK or FDR were bad, but it's just funny how historical perspective can change things. The criticisms most common of Obama now are almost one-to-one with the criticisms leveled against JFK then (an empty suit, simply an inspirational speaker, is he really loyal to America or to the Pope/Kenyan socialist fascist imam radical christian) - in fact JFK even had a few Obama didn't, like being accused of using mafia ties to help get dead people to vote in the '60 election. As much as liberals like to carp on voter irregularities in the 2000 (Florida) and 2004 (Diebold) elections, it does behove us to remember that it has gone the other way a couple of times (the accusations about voter irregularities helping JFK in the 1960 election were true).

Also JFK's presidency was cut short so it's difficult to say what might have been. However, Johnson despite getting a bad rap (deservedly) for escalating the Vietnam War tried to pass the most sweeping social equality legislation since FDR (the so-called Great Society bills) and while he got civil rights legislation (and Medicare and Medicaid) through, most other measures failed due to ... the Vietnam War. So he shot his own domestic policies in the foot. However, the decision to get involved un Vietnam went back to Dulles (republican secretary of state) in the 50's and all the presidents (including JFK) kept slowly ramping up our involvement not truly realizing what they were getting themselves into until it was too late and we were killing a lot of Vietnamese and a lot of our own citizens over someone else's civil war.

FDR passed a lot of great social legislation and work projects spending on which while it increased spending during the recession kept people employed and fixed (or sometimes even created) our infrastructure which hasn't been upgraded since Eisenhower built freeways. But FDR also interned Japanese citizens during WWII and, as part of trying pass social legislation, had a run-in with the supreme court which almost caused a constitutional crises the likes of which we haven't seen since.

So at the time, JFK and FDR were just as hated and had many of the same criticisms leveled against them that Obama has had. Again, that doesn't mean I think Obama will be some great icon or is the most wonderful leader ever or that FDR or JFK were bad, but on the whole, they are/were flawed humans as everyone is who ultimately are trying/tried to right policy wrongs - or at least what Democrats consider policy wrongs of course which is in fact different from what Republicans consider to be bad policy (hence why there is a difference between the parties). Republican administrations don't pass civil rights laws, they pass patriot acts. Democratic administrations change some bad policies and keep others. And ironically despite their reputation, Dems actually spend much less than their Republican counterparts - the whole "Obama has increased the deficit by such a huge amount" argument mostly stems from the fact that he bothered to put all the years of spending on the Iraq war on the books whereas under Bush the cost of the war was kept off our official spending accounts. SO of course the deficit took a huge increase - 5+ years worth of the Iraq war got added to it overnight. TARP and healthcare actually accounts for very little, especially since most of the TARP money. That 700 billion? It's actually less than 50 billion now - the CEOs realized than under Obama the money came with strings attached and returned the money. In fact with health care, even the Republicans have had to amend their pay-as-you-go policy that they claim they want because repealing health care will cost more to the budget than allowing it to stay on the books. So it's pay-as-you-go unless it's repealing health care.

Has Obama continued some of the bad/immoral legislation? Yes, the patriot act is still there (ironically the Tea partiers might help kill that one), Guantamino is still open, renditions still occur, etc ... but weighed against what he has managed to accomplish especially during that last lame-duck session of congress ...well I would have preferred a jobs bill up front, I would've preferred this or that, but considering how spineless the Democrats have been the last 10 years especially, it's not bad for progressives. Of course now with Republicans and the really right-wing Tea partiers in control of the House, we can expect trench warfare with ultimate Democratic capitulation for the next 2 years.

So if Obama were as good as Fox news ... we wouldn't have the current political situation. :) But it is funny, now even Republicans speak of FDR, JFK, and even Clinton now in solemn breaths (while despising everything they stood for - btw for clarity I'm not saying you are a conservative or republican, I'm just talking about generalities) and asking why can't Obama be more like them? When at the time they hated all of them with a vengeance. To be fair, Democrats also do the same for Reagan - speaking glowingly of him now despite the fact that at the time he was damn near the Democrat's anti-christ in the eighties. Ah politics. It's almost enough to make an optimist like me become a pessimist. Perhaps I'll just be a realist and have done with it. :)

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bladeofBG: Add to that, we'd do even better if we remembered to differentiate the American public from those who dominate the White House.
Yes and no. As much as I hate to be associated with George Bush and would love to distance myself from everything he did, he was the elected president and in a democracy therefore representative of what the majority of Americans - at least the 2nd time around :) - wanted. We do have ways to protect the minority, but elections do and should have consequences. Everyone else may have thought it was a terrible decision - I certainly did - but it's not like say ... Egypt pre-revolution. In a democracy, the people are ultimately responsible for the actions their leaders take in their name. That's why I so vehemently disagree with the other poster's oh-so-sophisticated ennui that everyone is the same. They're not. The differences do matter. When we elect a person, even if I voted for someone else, that person represents me - maybe not well, but they do.

That said one should always differentiate individuals from a group and treat an individual by who they are and not to what collective group they belong.
Post edited February 16, 2011 by crazy_dave
Coo' story bro...J/k! It was a good and informative post.

A couple of things though.

-I never meant to compare Obama to JFK, for I simply feel that there's no comparison at all to be had. This in JFK's favor. But at the same time, I never meant to put JFK on a pedestal.

I like JFK for 3 things. (1) was for disagreeing w/the popular president Truman when he was a Senator, (2) for his commitment to USA's space program in the face of the opposition from Vannevar Bush & his extensive network that wanted Vannevar to have autonomy for himself regarding all things space-related, and (3) for his opposition and moves against Operation Northwoods.

How those 3 things compare to Obama are open for debate I guess, but in what I've studied, Obama can't hold a candle to him (especially since the criticisms you have for both are not criticisms I have for either; I simply believe Obama deliberately & continually speaks one thing but does another, to each & every person he'd come in contact with, much like Fox News' reporting - that's where my criticism of Obama stems from, regarding this thread). We could go deeper into that discussion, but that'd be derailing this thread further.

Regarding the 2000 Florida election vs. JFK's reported fuckery, I believe there's no comparison as well. Florida held up the Dubya-Gore election, was governed by Jeb Bush, Dubya's younger brother, yet not one news agency repeatedly raised red flags as to the 'happy coincidence' about the whole mess. It was a sham and is something that the entire American news media (not juss Fox News, who I'm sure was all to fuckin happy about it) will never live down. They spent those whole few months doing everything except anything remotely close to investigative journalism regarding the issue, as if whoever won the that election was of no consequence.

I was of the mind that JFK wanted little to do w/Vietnam. And judging by his actions over Operation Northwoods, I doubt he would've been at all pleased w/what looked to be USA's potential occupation of Vietnam.

Regarding your 4th paragraph, that's juss the whole thing I feel about Obama though. I don't believe he's at all trying to right any wrongs of the previous administration, save to do enough to try to get re-elected in '12 or to see what he could get away with while having a veneer of trying to do right to the American population and his political & business constituents. I believe that behind the veneer of respectability, he's trying to serve some fictitious devil that not even Satan or Asmodeus have ever even heard of. But given the current circumstances, I've enough proof to show that to you as Fox News does of the rabbit in Glen Beck's ass. But juss take my word for it cuz I'm more credible. :oD

Re: your 5th paragraph: Like I said before, I've a limited understanding of American politics, but the Tea Party juss seems funny to me. I like John Boehner though. I know he's Republican, but I dunno if that qualifies him as a Tea Party member. If he isn't, but is still Republican, does that mean Fox News hates him and will inevitably accuse him of being lukewarm? I know that looks funny, but its actually a serious question!

LOL! I never meant Obama being as 'good' (I assume you mean 'good' as in competent) as FoxNews. I meant Obama & others I mentioned are as deceitful as FoxNews. More so, actually.

Dude, I'm suprised you mention Florida in 2000, and still maintain Dubya was 'elected' president (this in the face of his father only doing one term, and most Americans being aware that Clinton made for record profits all across the board, and Gore was VP during that time). Oh, but then you mentioned "the 2nd time around." Gotcha! I credit him taking that election due to having some conviction, while Kerry was all like "Umm, uh, yeah, well I can...um...do that....too....I umm... think...so....umkay?"

I think I see what you're saying in that same paragraph. My whole thing is what is the incentive for a president to try his best to fully do what's right, when once in office? Like what safeguards are there for the American people to stop their president from becoming a 'clandestine' tyrant for the 4-8yrs that they're in office? What safeguards are there to stop a president from being a 4-8yr variant of Hosni Mubarak?

Agreed. We should always treat individuals as individuals, and not solely define them by the group they choose to represent them.

Good discusssion n stuff, but I'll have you know I don't understand any country's politics as well as you understand it. I only understand JFK as much as I do (still not nearly as good as others do) b/c of the intrigue surrounding his death, and the interesting time he was living in.
Post edited February 16, 2011 by bladeofBG
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bladeofBG: /snip
So I tend not to jump to conspiracy when stupidity and timidity serve just as well as explanations. The latter two tend to fall in line with human nature more than grand subtle Machiavellian schemes. There have only been a few humans in history really capable of pulling stuff like that off and as smart as I think Obama is, I don't think he's that good. For instance, Fox New is pro-Republican, pro-conservative, pro-business, etc... but subtlety is not really their strong suit. It's pretty blatant. In fact most of the successful propagandists of the 21st century have been effective, but not terribly subtle because you don't really need subtlety.

So Obama is hardly stupid, however, his pattern fits historically very well with the Democratic inability to be effective. Democrats have always been more difficult to organize effectively than Republicans. It's just the nature of the party. The Republicans really managed to make liberal a dirty word in the 90s and the Democrats have been scared of that label ever since (which is why it's so effective). Thus Democratic presidents will only go so far and Obama spent all his political capital from winning the election on TARP and health care (and his fellow Dems were so scared to spend their own capital on those, so they essentially shot themselves in the foot) so that in the end even to get what he got through, he had to make major concessions to a political party very, very much in the minority (something the Republicans never had to do even when they had smaller majorities than the Dems enjoyed for the last 2 years).

So a good chunk of the stuff left undone really boils down to Dems being timid on legislation more than anything else. Even so, in the last month (December) they finally pushed through a lot of stuff, though as I said Obama had to make concessions on tax breaks to do it. There were some Dems who railed against the compromise, but frankly where was their anger over the last couple of years? So I didn't feel they had much room to criticize since it was the only way Obama could push through things like the Repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, health care for 9/11 workers, and unemployment benefits for laid off workers. The conviction you credit Bush with and the lack thereof for Kerry has been the classic Democratic problem and to me Obama's lack movement on some these issues is easily understandable under that context.

Obama really couldn't be a Mubarak, the Dems aren't simply aren't organized enough, the Republicans even as a small minority had seemingly more power at times, and the courts can overturn anything unconstitutional. It's why we have the 3 branches of government so that one man/party cannot control everything. Other countries, like Britain, simply rely on tradition, but there the Prime Minister and the controlling party if they haven't had to form a coalition can do pretty much whatever they want. However, tradition (and common law) puts a brake on the worst impulses.

However, while the whole "all politician lie" truism is true to a certain extent, one should keep in mind that the role of a president is mostly reactive. Hence a lot of the times the presidency is reacting to situations they weren't expecting (like a spill in the gulf or 9/11) and not being proactive and carrying out the policy they had originally intended. Thus giving the impression of not being true to their word. If you actually look at what Obama has said he would do and what he's tried to do, he's actually been better than most in this regard, if a little slower than some of us would like. The are some fact-checker websites you can check out for yourself on this.

Boehner is indeed a Republican but is not really a Tea Party person. In fact the Republican leadership (like Boehner) is having trouble controlling their Tea Party members who don't see eye to eye with the established Republican party. I find he's annoying, but unfortunately many of the Republicans I used to have respect for seem to have become vastly more conservative in the last few years to fit the current political climate within the party. McCain, Graham, etc ... have all taken sharp turns to the right to fend off ultra-conservative candidates in Republican primaries. A shame, for while I sharply disagreed with them, I had respect for the integrity of their positions before.

As for the 2000 election, the media did indeed point out all the coincidences and screw ups here. Trust me, in the States, we heard about nothing else for months on end - it was wall to wall. I suppose the more calculating Republicans consider the 2000 election to be revenge for the 1960 election.

As for Vietnam, I don't think anyone, not JFK, not Johnson, not Nixon really wanted to be there. It was more a case they all felt they had inherited this situation and they all felt they had to be there and do something - a case of group think that it was necessary to combat communism without realizing that the people there didn't see in the light of some global war of ideals, but as a civil war to unite their country. But since we had invested in it already we had to make sure it succeeded so we sent more and more and more over, until it became the horrible conflagration it became. Unfortunately due to JFK's death we'll never know how he would've viewed it in retrospect, but both Johnson and McNamara never forgave themselves for Vietnam - there is a brilliant documentary on it called "Fog of War". If you like that period of time in American history, I highly recommend it - truly fascinating and in many way depressing to watch. Johnson at the time, the presidential records show truly hated being there but felt he had to soldier on. McNamara at the time thought the war was winnable and is now broken by his mistakes.

Anyway, same to you, good conversation, but I think we've completely derailed the thread now. :)
Post edited February 16, 2011 by crazy_dave
Yeah I don't think Obama that smart either. I always think of him in terms of that "Like a Boss" song by Lonely Island. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c

I'm surprised if that's the reason why the Dems gave up the 2000 election. Whenever I think about it, I think of 'record profits now turned into a record deficit.' Very sad.

Thanks for that 'Fog of War' info. I hope to check it out in due time.

Now to get this thread back on track. Yeah fuck Fox News! Better to simply read the news, from whichever source, simply to get the facts of what's going on in the world, and develop your own opinions by thinking about it for yourself.