Posted July 13, 2012
I'me almost done (currently playing Dark Queen of Krynn) replaying all the Gold Box games (except Buck Rogers: Matrix Cubed, which was just too uninspired and boring) and I've also played the Baldur's Gate games and Icewind Dale several times.
The Gold Box games were the first good AD&D games, although I think there was an official AD&D game made for the old Intellivision system also.
What made the Gold Box games so good was the excellent turn based tactical combat combined with good encounter design. Not surprising maybe since SSI specialized in wargames, and this was actually why they got the licsense in the first place, in competition with bigger companies like EA.
They also had pretty good stories - none of the ultra tired "you are the only one who can save the world from the evil wizard/necomancer/demon and his hellish army by finding the four crystals/artefacts" crap. You started out with local or personal affairs.
The Infinity Games improved on all aspects of the game, except you lost some control when moving on to a real time with pause combat system, with no grid or opportunity attack rules. But encounter desing was improved (BG2 has the best encounter design of any CRPG IMO), the AI was significantly improved (and moddable) and there was just much more variety in spells, items, skills/abilities and monsters.
Of the Gold Box games the first one - Pool of Radiance - was in many ways the best designed of them, and felt most like a true table top experience. It also had the most interesting overland map, and even some chioices&consrquences since how you dealt with certain groups determined how they reacted to you when randomly encountering them later in the game.
Pool of Radiance was a bit rough around the edges, but later games improved the graphics and introduced the Fix command to quickly heal the party, and later games would remember which spells you had cast when memorizing spells.
The Gold Box games' biggest weakness to me was the piss poor AI. Especially the party AI when using Quick Combat was atrocious in all the games. Monster AI was pretty bad too, but it was improved in the last three or so games. Enemy spell casters could move and then cast, they would target their spells better, and monster wouldn't run blindly into Stinking Clouds anymore.
On the RPG Codex I've written my impressions of the two Savage Frontier games from the Gold Box series and I repeat it here:
Gateway to the Savage Frontier:
Just finished replaying this game and though I'd jot down some impressions, since I can't find much discussion on this game on the Codex or elsewhere, depsite it apparantly selling very well back in 1991.
Overall it was a decline compared to the other Gold Box games.
The main problem with the game is that the random encounters lack variety - there are usually only one type of encounter on each map or overland terrain type.
Most areas thankfully have a finite amount of random encounters. The official clue book was a nice guide in this game, and the first thing I did when entering a new area was to consult the clue book and see what it said about random encounters. On maps with a finite amount (usually about 5) I explored normally, on maps where they constantly spawn untill killing a boss I went straight for the boss, and on maps where they constantly spawn no matter what I just headed for the objective ASAP and then got out ASAP.
On the overland map traveling on roads and rivers have a much less chance of encounter than in the wilderness. In the wilderness it's a D6 chance of encounters and despite the large and attractive looking overland map there is nothing interesting whatsoever to discover. No lairs, ruins or scripted encounters; just the same encounter every 6th step or so.
On plains you encounter either Hobgoblins or Wild Boars on the road or Ankhegs if on a river, in forests Ettins or Giant Snakes, in marshes Trolls and in hills Hill Giants. IOW, not very exciting. But thankfully the tedium can be kept to a minimum by staying on roads and rivers.
So knowing this the game became more fun than a chore.
Another problem is that the game's only mildly challenging battle is the final sequence of battles, but even that can be avoided and you can win by running, or walking if invisible, from one combat map to the next untill you reach the plaza where you need to place the statues.
Hell, the game even assumes that you didn't kill Vaalgamon!
Vaalgamon is a mean mofo of a Fighter/Mage with -8 AC, 150 HP and a +5 Sword, who regenerates HP between each round. But my Hasted and Enlarged Fighter/Thief killed him with four backstabs.
I had actually hoped for a large battle in Sundabar against an army of Orcs and Trolls, but the army turned out to be just an illusion. :(
So the only battles in which I had to use buffs, potions and wands were the final three battles. First a large group of Trolls and Ettins. One well placed Stinking Cloud did wonders in this battle.
The next one was against a large group of Shambling Mounds and some mages and Zhentil commanders. A combo of Charming the Zhentil commanders, and the Wand of Deflowering Defoliation and Stinking Cloud against the Mounds (not as effective as against the Trolls and Ettins, though) did the trick here.
The Slow spell did wonders in the final battle, against the Shambing Mounds and Vaalgamon. It was the only spell that had any effect of Vaalgamon.
There was a bug with the Shambling Mounds, though. When killed they dropped som insane loot, like magic bow, Plate Mail +3, Cloak of Displacement and an Ioun Stone. The weird thing is that these items can't be found anywhere else in the game. The Shambling Mounds also had an AC of -4 while in other GB games they have AC 0.
I tried googling this but couldn't find any useful information.
The Giant Snakes were bugged to, I think. They dropped lots of Leather Armours when killed, and their attacks paralyzed instead of poisoning characters.
Another bug (I think) was with the Ascorean Mummies. If they hit you there is a chance of being infliced with Disease, which weakens you character. My Ranger, who was the only one with exceptional strength, went from 18(50) to 17 STR. No matter of Cure Disease, Dispel Magic or resting brought it back. I assumed this permanent STR loss was a bug, so I just quit and reloaded if it happened again.
Another thing that kind of worried me was that often a monster would move, but instead of attacking and getting a message that it missed the game instead made the same animation as if getting no attack due to a Slow spell.
OTOH, some "bosses" got two actions in a round, like first casting a spell and then moving and attacking.
Another possible bug was in Ascore. There is a trapped chest that my Thief had no chance of disarming, but my Paladin succeeded. And each time the disarm failed the trap would go off. Not sure it this was bug or the game trolling me.
And I was annoyed that Sweeping goblins didn't work.
The clue book doesn't mention any of these possible bugs.
I was playing DOS version 1.2 of the game, BTW. No copy protection, so I think it was a cracked version.
There were some improvements compared to the older GB games:
In battle spells effects would be shown on characters and monsters. So you could see which monsters were affected by a Slow spell, for example.
Monster AI felt slightly more random and less predictable.
The game never felt like a Monty Haul campaign and there were useful things to spend money on, like training, healing and magic items. In the Krynn games training and healing were free, for example.
When encamping the game lists all the special non-inventory items you've found.
Some events happened at special times, either a certain time after the party entering the area, or at a certain day in the week. Shops were still open in the middle of night, though.
I'm looking forward to play the sequel - Treasures of the Savage Frontier. It was the only fantasy GB game I never completed, but armed with more knowledge and a clue book it should be a less frustrating experience than the first time.
"Your post is too long".
OK, so I make a new post with the second part.
"Your post is too long".
So why the fuck does the forum software add the second post to the first one?
The Gold Box games were the first good AD&D games, although I think there was an official AD&D game made for the old Intellivision system also.
What made the Gold Box games so good was the excellent turn based tactical combat combined with good encounter design. Not surprising maybe since SSI specialized in wargames, and this was actually why they got the licsense in the first place, in competition with bigger companies like EA.
They also had pretty good stories - none of the ultra tired "you are the only one who can save the world from the evil wizard/necomancer/demon and his hellish army by finding the four crystals/artefacts" crap. You started out with local or personal affairs.
The Infinity Games improved on all aspects of the game, except you lost some control when moving on to a real time with pause combat system, with no grid or opportunity attack rules. But encounter desing was improved (BG2 has the best encounter design of any CRPG IMO), the AI was significantly improved (and moddable) and there was just much more variety in spells, items, skills/abilities and monsters.
Of the Gold Box games the first one - Pool of Radiance - was in many ways the best designed of them, and felt most like a true table top experience. It also had the most interesting overland map, and even some chioices&consrquences since how you dealt with certain groups determined how they reacted to you when randomly encountering them later in the game.
Pool of Radiance was a bit rough around the edges, but later games improved the graphics and introduced the Fix command to quickly heal the party, and later games would remember which spells you had cast when memorizing spells.
The Gold Box games' biggest weakness to me was the piss poor AI. Especially the party AI when using Quick Combat was atrocious in all the games. Monster AI was pretty bad too, but it was improved in the last three or so games. Enemy spell casters could move and then cast, they would target their spells better, and monster wouldn't run blindly into Stinking Clouds anymore.
On the RPG Codex I've written my impressions of the two Savage Frontier games from the Gold Box series and I repeat it here:
Gateway to the Savage Frontier:
Just finished replaying this game and though I'd jot down some impressions, since I can't find much discussion on this game on the Codex or elsewhere, depsite it apparantly selling very well back in 1991.
Overall it was a decline compared to the other Gold Box games.
The main problem with the game is that the random encounters lack variety - there are usually only one type of encounter on each map or overland terrain type.
Most areas thankfully have a finite amount of random encounters. The official clue book was a nice guide in this game, and the first thing I did when entering a new area was to consult the clue book and see what it said about random encounters. On maps with a finite amount (usually about 5) I explored normally, on maps where they constantly spawn untill killing a boss I went straight for the boss, and on maps where they constantly spawn no matter what I just headed for the objective ASAP and then got out ASAP.
On the overland map traveling on roads and rivers have a much less chance of encounter than in the wilderness. In the wilderness it's a D6 chance of encounters and despite the large and attractive looking overland map there is nothing interesting whatsoever to discover. No lairs, ruins or scripted encounters; just the same encounter every 6th step or so.
On plains you encounter either Hobgoblins or Wild Boars on the road or Ankhegs if on a river, in forests Ettins or Giant Snakes, in marshes Trolls and in hills Hill Giants. IOW, not very exciting. But thankfully the tedium can be kept to a minimum by staying on roads and rivers.
So knowing this the game became more fun than a chore.
Another problem is that the game's only mildly challenging battle is the final sequence of battles, but even that can be avoided and you can win by running, or walking if invisible, from one combat map to the next untill you reach the plaza where you need to place the statues.
Hell, the game even assumes that you didn't kill Vaalgamon!
Vaalgamon is a mean mofo of a Fighter/Mage with -8 AC, 150 HP and a +5 Sword, who regenerates HP between each round. But my Hasted and Enlarged Fighter/Thief killed him with four backstabs.
I had actually hoped for a large battle in Sundabar against an army of Orcs and Trolls, but the army turned out to be just an illusion. :(
So the only battles in which I had to use buffs, potions and wands were the final three battles. First a large group of Trolls and Ettins. One well placed Stinking Cloud did wonders in this battle.
The next one was against a large group of Shambling Mounds and some mages and Zhentil commanders. A combo of Charming the Zhentil commanders, and the Wand of Deflowering Defoliation and Stinking Cloud against the Mounds (not as effective as against the Trolls and Ettins, though) did the trick here.
The Slow spell did wonders in the final battle, against the Shambing Mounds and Vaalgamon. It was the only spell that had any effect of Vaalgamon.
There was a bug with the Shambling Mounds, though. When killed they dropped som insane loot, like magic bow, Plate Mail +3, Cloak of Displacement and an Ioun Stone. The weird thing is that these items can't be found anywhere else in the game. The Shambling Mounds also had an AC of -4 while in other GB games they have AC 0.
I tried googling this but couldn't find any useful information.
The Giant Snakes were bugged to, I think. They dropped lots of Leather Armours when killed, and their attacks paralyzed instead of poisoning characters.
Another bug (I think) was with the Ascorean Mummies. If they hit you there is a chance of being infliced with Disease, which weakens you character. My Ranger, who was the only one with exceptional strength, went from 18(50) to 17 STR. No matter of Cure Disease, Dispel Magic or resting brought it back. I assumed this permanent STR loss was a bug, so I just quit and reloaded if it happened again.
Another thing that kind of worried me was that often a monster would move, but instead of attacking and getting a message that it missed the game instead made the same animation as if getting no attack due to a Slow spell.
OTOH, some "bosses" got two actions in a round, like first casting a spell and then moving and attacking.
Another possible bug was in Ascore. There is a trapped chest that my Thief had no chance of disarming, but my Paladin succeeded. And each time the disarm failed the trap would go off. Not sure it this was bug or the game trolling me.
And I was annoyed that Sweeping goblins didn't work.
The clue book doesn't mention any of these possible bugs.
I was playing DOS version 1.2 of the game, BTW. No copy protection, so I think it was a cracked version.
There were some improvements compared to the older GB games:
In battle spells effects would be shown on characters and monsters. So you could see which monsters were affected by a Slow spell, for example.
Monster AI felt slightly more random and less predictable.
The game never felt like a Monty Haul campaign and there were useful things to spend money on, like training, healing and magic items. In the Krynn games training and healing were free, for example.
When encamping the game lists all the special non-inventory items you've found.
Some events happened at special times, either a certain time after the party entering the area, or at a certain day in the week. Shops were still open in the middle of night, though.
I'm looking forward to play the sequel - Treasures of the Savage Frontier. It was the only fantasy GB game I never completed, but armed with more knowledge and a clue book it should be a less frustrating experience than the first time.
"Your post is too long".
OK, so I make a new post with the second part.
"Your post is too long".
So why the fuck does the forum software add the second post to the first one?
Post edited July 13, 2012 by PetrusOctavianus
