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FraterPerdurabo: Sending warning letters is simply a part of pre-action protocol.
It's procedure that you have to follow.
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SimonG: But those weren't your usual "cease and desist letters". They had an arbitrarily high "fee" (about 300€) that needed to be payed and on top of that threatened legal action which would cost several thousand euros if you don't pay right now.
I've heard that it's quite usual to get that kind of letters in Germany, but for like 3 000 euros? I don't know if it's a scam or not, but my friend said it happens quite often.
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SimonG: snip
Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm not taking any sides here, though admittedly I was more than surprised when I did hear about this after having gone for their whole anti-DRM crusade thing.
Simply pointing out that such letters are part of pre-action protocol without which it would not be possible to bring a claim in the future. Its contents are obviously another matter.

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keeveek: I've heard that it's quite usual to get that kind of letters in Germany, but for like 3 000 euros? I don't know if it's a scam or not, but my friend said it happens quite often.
It's just standard litigation but the contents of the letter are definitely taken into account by the court if the case ever goes to trial.

edit2: for example, the amount that you demanded and the amount that you actually were awarded are taken into account in assessment of costs, etc.
Post edited August 17, 2012 by FraterPerdurabo
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keeveek: I've heard that it's quite usual to get that kind of letters in Germany, but for like 3 000 euros? I don't know if it's a scam or not, but my friend said it happens quite often.
It is "scamish" to say the least. It not directly illegal, but it is very, very borderline. They are pretty much using legislation aimed at copyright infringement and use it for their own little scheme. If the actual contracts behind the law firms and the content owner would surface, I suspect that those are highly illegal. But you cannot get them, as their are protected by the client privilege.

The problem is that the lawyers know that 80% of their cases would be thrown out in court, but by saying "pay now 300€ or later 3000€" they are pretty much blackmailing people into paying. Most don't even follow up the legal process, because they know they might very well lose. But simply sending a couple of thousand letters to suspected pirates costs them virtually nothing and there are enough people who can be threatened into paying. That is pretty much a shakedown for fun and profits (well, more for fun).

I've seen this process from the part of prosecution and I know a few judges who had such cases in court (a few years back this was so prevalent, that it actually tied down the legislative process). And I've seen the disastrous effects this has on the affected families. Personally, I know that this is highly despicable even if you would get a 100% "pirate hit ratio". But taking the inaccuracies into account on top of that...

Although the gaming industry isn't nearly as malevolent as the music industry in that area. I honestly thought that this was over when the news broke with CDPR.

Germany has a very strong "IP protection" legal system, due to our dependency on patents and innovation. That is why companies love to do that here. And because in Germany you can even shake down the poor for a few hundred euros, even if that means they will live of food stamps for a couple of month.
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FraterPerdurabo: It's just standard litigation but the contents of the letter are definitely taken into account by the court if the case ever goes to trial.

edit2: for example, the amount that you demanded and the amount that you actually were awarded are taken into account in assessment of costs, etc.
The problem with those letters is that the amounts they threaten people are completely absurd. They use arbitrarily high costs to push the people into paying the "lesser evil".

When this started they went as far as saying "5000€ per song". But in a case that actually went to court, a judge mentioned that if they don't do more calculations in the letters in the future, that could actually be seen as extortion. Legal claim or not.

Those cases were probably the biggest "schism" in the German legal field in recent years. Normally all legal parties get along just fine, but those letters were greeted with barely restrained disgust by judges and prosecutors alike. Especially since they couldn't do much, because as shitty as it was, the core demand was still based on the law...
Post edited August 17, 2012 by SimonG
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SimonG: snip
Yeah, the calculation of damages for IP infringement is a contentious point of discussion. Remember that case that they had thrown out in the US because their calculation of damages was absurd?

I'm not sure how costs are calculated in Germany, but in the UK the winner pays the loser's legal costs. 300 euros for TW2 might be pushing it, but it's probably not excessive (legal fees, court fees, etc). 3000 euros is pushing it though.
Well, it appears that kind of practice is legal in Poland. Rightowner and their lawyers are entitled to defend their IP by sending warning letters and demand money for piracy before taking it to a court.

Just like you may say "Pay me 100 bucks or we'll go to court" to a guy that destroyed your pants or whatever. I wouldn't call it blackmailing.
Post edited August 17, 2012 by keeveek
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keeveek: Well, it appears that kind of practice is legal in Poland. Rightowner and their lawyers are entitled to defend their IP by sending warning letters and demand money for piracy before taking it to a court.

Just like you may say "Pay me 100 bucks or we'll go to court" to a guy that destroyed your pants or whatever. I wouldn't call it blackmailing.
Precisely, it's just standard litigation.
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keeveek: Just like you may say "Pay me 100 bucks or we'll go to court" to a guy that destroyed your pants or whatever. I wouldn't call it blackmailing.
I'm not going into this again, as I said my piece when the news broke. And I really don't have the time to go into all the details again.

But with your analogy it would be: "Pay me 500€ within two weeks , or I will go to court and make you pay 5000€" (for a "damage" around 50€). If the thread is in no relation to the "legal" goal, it still is blackmail. Not to mention that all this was done on suspicion and circumstantial evidence. The "thread" was exactly made that high to discourage people from pursuing their legal options.

But I'm done discussing this. I've explained it in detail in the threads that were around back then, and I neither have the time nor the effort to do this again.
Post edited August 17, 2012 by SimonG
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SimonG: ...
Holy crap, dude, they are on to you!