keeveek: Yeah, 22 pages now and the topic hasn't moved forward a single step :P But it's not stopping people from posting ;D

TrollumThinks: I wouldn't say 'negligible' but 'outnumbered' sure - just look at the worldwide stats ;)

stonebro: Stats such as these?

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/08/17/tough-love-thuggery-under-jesus-loving-hands/

Or are you going to come dragging with STALIN WAS AN ATHEIST and try to defend your warped world view from there?

Trelow: The opinions of Protestants don't count. :)

TrollumThinks: I'm not claiming to have the answer but below are some possibilities:

TrollumThinks: that's not quite right. He's always been the same, Jesus came to bring us back to Him - set us back on the path so to speak. The 'wrathful side' was only against those who 'deserved it' anyway (Sodom and Gomorrah for example "If I find even one good person I will spare the city"). Whether we believe that their destruction was literally caused by God or just attributed to Him later is another matter. Humans put their own spin on things too.

TrollumThinks: We're assuming they're punishments specifically. We know we live in a harsh world - the perfect one where everyone's happy is supposed to be Heaven - that's after we die.
So we can attribute manmade evil to free will.

Natural disasters (and other bad stuff) must have another explanation.
And to call them 'evil' is another debate as well. In the event that there is a God then a natural death is not evil, it's just returning to Him and (hopefully) going to Heaven. The ones who suffer are the ones who are left behind. So we'll look at why that is:

Is this life a test/trial or an opportunity to learn and grow? Maybe a little of both. When disaster strikes do we say "every man (or woman) for himself" or do we pitch in to help each other?

keeveek: I do really respect people who believe in God concept. More like "Absolute form" concept, more abstract than any known God now.

If someone believe there is some force beyond human reason, I would say it's ok. But most people I know believe in CERTAIN God, which is not so logical. They believe in Christian God only because they were born in Christian culture, and I can't find any logic here, only how they were raised by parents.

keeveek: So there's no hope for you. I hope you will be strongly disappointed when after death of yours(which will be many years from now, of course) , only darkness and nothingness will wait for you. As for all of us.

TrollumThinks: the idea there was control. (I'm not saying that was a good thing mind you)
It could also be argued that by translating it you risk mis-translating it (see the unicorns and witches mentioned before) and leave it open to close-minded fools trying to pick apart and argue the specifics while ignoring the main message. That happens anyway though as it's just quoted out of context in any language.

Zolgar: Think of it, for a moment, like a computer program, the programmer writes the code, and then other people start picking apart the code, and at first, they don't comprehend all the code, so don't know how this or that part works. Over time, they continue to pick apart the source code and realize more and more of how it works, until such time as they are perhaps as smart as the original programmer.

Following with that, it could then also be said that, the programmer made errors, or had useless data in it which it believed was needed, or maybe once was needed, but as people have tinkered with the source code over time, it's been changed slightly, rendering certain bits less needed.
(since I know someone is going to jump on it: that does not mean we're living in a computer program, it's an analogy :p)

TrollumThinks: To cover the points you did link:
Bart Ehrman makes some interesting points - but they're still speculation.

TrollumThinks: [sarcasm] Peter was illiterate? I never would have guessed that a fisherman from his era wouldn't have been able to read or write[/sarcasm] But seriously, he did a lot of talking and had a lot of followers who could read and write - not too much of a stretch to think that he dictated.

TrollumThinks: Similarities with Egyptian myths? (and again I don't have time to read them all now) - not so surprising that different cultures would have similar ideas, especially if there is only one God, though the Egyptians worshipped Him as many. The idea of a virgin birth for example would be considered a point of divine work and a special birth. Not surprising then if Jesus comes into the world that way.

Zolgar: The point you make about arguing the Earth is flat even today, there's too much hard evidence that is not the case, and anyone who somehow genuinely believes it to be true still, can (with enough money, I suppose) sail around the world.

JudasIscariot: I still can't believe that people still put faith in an institution that is known for covering up pedophilia and other abuses. If that's the way the leaders of a religion act, then it says fuck all about the very religion itself.

JudasIscariot: Why is the Church against contraception especially considering that we already have almost 7 billion people in the world? Because they need more followers to donate more money to their coffers.

JudasIscariot: Why does the Church always try to cover their own ass whenever a scandal comes up? Look at how they suddenly move a priest to another parish if anything uncomfortable starts to happen or how they were vehemently covering up the scandals in the Vatican.

JudasIscariot: Why do the top representatives of the Church drape themselves in excessive wealth while their parish is practically dirt poor in some cases? Why does the Church own any property at all considering their founder was poor and wore a simple tunic or robe?

JudasIscariot: 3. Religion produces nothing it only takes. Its priests and other employees pay almost no taxes and on top of that people pay them to do absolutely nothing other than preach and go through the motions of the Mass.

TrollumThinks: fair enough, I confess I don't know the bible inside out. Doesn't make the whole thing worthless. Perhaps some of it should be revised.

Aliasalpha: ... and the lack of evidence produced over 2 millennia is so overwhelming that its one of the few instances where its nearly valid to claim that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Paradoks: And there is evidence that God exists. It's called miracles. You say that these don't happen? OK - tell that to all the people that were cured, or those whose children according to doctors had no chance of surviving and lived. But then again 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.'

Paradoks: About this and the Apostles not speaking Greek - I think that Pentecost explains everything quite nicely :p.

Paradoks: From what I know the legend of Isis actually had more to do with necrophilia than virgin birth :p.

Paradoks: No it should not be revised (assuming you accept it as an Inspired Word). It should be read with understanding. You realise that the Bible contains various types of writings from different authors and different times. While reading, you must take the historical and cultural context into account. Domgrief made a good point about this a few pages back. Basically for Jews obeying the strict rules was a matter of maintaning integrity and as a result - survival. And that passage was a fragment of a set of rules meant to defend the institution of a family. While the speciffic rules are outdated, the goal remains important to this day.

Sargon: Well I have to say that i disagree with most everything you said, except that I too think that western civilization have progressed the most and has the most human friendly system. The view on the rights of women is just one but a very important part of it.

But there have been many great leaps and contributions by other cultures as well throughout history, and even though we have been above the others since the enlightenment, I think it is unfair to slam all the other cultures like you do.

I find your post very bigoted but since that was probably and shamelessly the way it was intended there is likely no point in me pointing this out :-)
To be well traveled is a good thing and it gives you a lot of knowledge about other cultures but to be able to really understand them it is not enough to go, look around and talk to people, you would need to read on topic books written by academics (and not by people with a political agenda).

Since I find your historical "analysis" and your description of how the world is today rather lacking, I have a recommendation for you.

Read history, a lot of it. If you don't want to buy books Wikipedia is not a bad source. It will give you a better understanding of how cultures evolve, how far we have come and maybe even some appreciation of the human condition in all its dirt and glory.


Sargon: Stoning is an extremely cruel and vicious form of punishment. And it is even more horrific to learn that some of the victims of this form of "justice" are rape victims, teenagers and children. Confronted with this I think it is very hard for anyone brought up in the West, multiculturalist or not to say that sharia justice is of equal value as western justice systems. Saying that an entire culture is of more value than another is a bit different however.

In my mind the different parts of a culture adds up in a pseudo-mathematical way to a "score" which gives different cultures a different rating based on my values. So for me cultures are of a different value (and I'm also a multiculturalist). Some other people may have a different outlook where they are okay with comparing different aspects of a culture (like the justice system or how children are treated) but think it makes no sense to give a whole culture a value and rank them.
I see no practical problems with this outlook, only in the hypothetical and absurd occurrence that a people would be voting for which culture it would embrace would this be a problem. As long as people can look upon the different parts that makes up a culture and say that this part needs an improvement it is only good to show some humility and respect.

Saying that Western culture is better than the others is sometimes needed for honesty and clarity, but it is a good idea to not say it too often, especially publicly. Why? Well it works in much the same way as when individuals speak of themselves as being better than other individuals. Most people in Western countries do probably share our sentiment anyway (that the West is the best), they just wisely keep it to themselves. I would not worry about that if I were you.

As for us multiculturalists, I will admit that prior to the 21st century there was a lot of naivity among us regarding different cultures. My opinion is that in general we have improved a lot. :-)

What is really important to understand however is that regardless you like me still are for immigration, or against any of it, it is a very good idea to treat people with respect and as a part of US not as THEM. (This is probably a bigger problem here in Europe than in your country.) Alienating people is a lose-lose for, anti-immigration people, multiculturalists, muslims, christians, atheists and most everyone.
Many of the anti-immigration people often employ a nasty rhetoric that paints immigrants or muslims as the enemy. There is nothing to gain with this. Even if you want to stop immigration completely there is nothing to gain with this.
Only if you want 卐Total War卐 will you find anything to gain with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4TmBf_cVLo&feature=player_detailpage#t=55s

Sargon: I have not got any anti-American agenda (infact I think the constant anti-Americanism many Europeans display is in many ways comparable to the type of derogatory anti-Muslim sentiment many of us agree are over the line), but I would like to point out a couple of barbaric practices still going on in the United States of America:

Male circumcision (which likely is as damaging as female circumcision) is still being perpetrated on over half of the male newborns in the US. 56 percent in 2005: http://www.hcup-us.ahrq.gov/reports/statbriefs/sb45.jsp

And this is mostly done by Christians and Secular Americans which should have no religious reason to do it unlike Jews and Muslims!
I take religious freedom very seriously but I think that the rights of a child to be protected against abuse and disfigurement trumps the the religious freedom of adults. Past 18 however, anyone should be free to modify or remove parts of their body as they see best for themselves for religious or other reasons. This will be one of the things your ancestors will shake their heads to when they read about it in their history books.

Another example that shows that barbarism is still alive and kicking (hard) in the America is the way it is accepted (and often celebrated) that people sentenced to jail can be expected to be raped.
It is in my opinion a lesser evil to be raped than stoned to death but it is surely a very cruel type of punishment. Are there any of your elected politicians that tries to stand up against this?

And I'm only going to mention the really big one by name since it is as horrible in the rest of the civilized world as in the west. The way we treat animals.