Just wondering what your favorite RPG classes that fit some variation of this archetype, the character who can cast both types of magic.

First of all, for this topic to make sense:
* There must be at least two types of magic, with different classes getting access to different combinations of them.
* There should be something like the D&D arcane/divine or the Final Fantasy White/Black magic distinction, with one type focused on destruction, and the other focused on healing.
* Typical spellcasters focus on one type of magic. (Note that this can't apply to all casters, or this topic wouldn't make sense, of course.)

As for the abilities of these classes, all of which learn both types of magic:

Bishop (from Wizardry):
* Learns new spell levels slowly, but eventually learns them all (though possibly at a level beyond the expected endgame level).
* Gets many of the priest's abilities, like dispelling undead, and can typically use priest equipment, making them typically stronger physically.
* May get some other ability like being able to identify items.
* Similar to AD&D's Cleric/Mage multi-class.

Red Mage (from Final Fantasy):
* Learns new spell levels almost as fast as pure casters, but doesn't learn high level spells.
* Can fight reasonably well, capable of using decent (typically mid-tier) weapons and armor, with decent fighting stats. Not as good as a pure fighter, of course.
* In later games (FInal Fantasy 5 being the first one), gains the ability to cast two spells in one turn.
* Closest AD&D equivalent would be the Fighter/Cleric/Mage triple class.

Sage (from Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy):
* Can learn all spells of both types, and learns them at a good rate. (In the FF4 implementation, even learns them before pure casters do, but lacks MP, giving you a character with high level spells but not enough MP to sustain their usage in the mid-game.)
* Not that good at fighting. The DQ3 variant gets decent weapons (like a priest), but the FF3/FF4 variants can only use mage equipment. (This creates an interesting dynamic in FF3 remake, where Red Mages can fight well endgame, but Sages are better at spellcasting.)

So, what are your favorite implementations of this concept (namely a caster who can use both types of magic)?

Anyone?

Monk (Vandal Hearts)
In Vandal Hearts, mages and priests can choose to advance to the versatile monk class instead of a specialist caster. They have offensive, healing, and buffing spells. However, their spells have shorter range and area of effects. Like knights, they have a bonus when attacking archers and spellcasters, but have weaker attack and defense stats. They also have second highest mobility. Their biggest downside is having to sacrifice advanced spell casters to get them, and I'll always want at least one dedicated priest and mage.

Vandalier (Vandal Hearts)
Unlockable class exclusive to the hero, who can cast every spell in the game, along with with high physical stats for melee combat. However, you need MP restoration items if you want to cast more often. An overpowered class that is only available near the end of the game.

Reminds me of some others:

Hero (Dragon Quest 3)
* Class exclusive to the main character, who (unlike everyone else) can't change class. Gets the ability to equip strong weapons and armor (like a Soldier), but can also cast spells. The spells tend to be weaker spells (they don't get the second healing spell until rather late, and shortly after learns the full heal), but at high levels gets both the most powerful healing spell and the most powerful attack spell. Unfortunately, those two powerful spells take a lot of MP (the healing spell costs 62(!) MP in DQ3, more than in later games (except DQ9, where that spell costs 128 IIRC)), and the hero doesn't get that many MP. (In remake versions, you can work around this by farming a bunch of intelligence seeds with at thief party, though you should not need to do this before postgame; don't do this in the original, as such seeds are worse than useless in that version.)

Sage (Dragon Quest 3 version)
* Class unavailable to new characters. You either find (and consume) an incredibly rare item (only 1 or 2 guaranteed, and it's nearly impossible to get more), or you change from the useless (and rather silly) Goof-off class; in either case, class changes require being level 20. Can fight a bit better than a Priest, and can learn every spell not exclusive to the Hero, but levels up more slowly. (In my most recent remake playthroughs, I would reach the final boss before getting the party heal spell; worth noting that there's an item that casts that spell for free that is find right before the final series of bosses.)

Onion Knight (Final Fantasy 3 remake):
* Can equip any item (except the job mastery weapons of other jobs and shurikens), and can cast all white and black magic spells (but no summons); MP is the same as the Sage's MP. The drawback is that stats are terrible until level 93, when they *finally* start to grow. (The game can be reasonably cleared in the 50s or 60s.) In the final dungeon, there are dragons that appear rarely as enemies; if you kill one, it will usually drop an Elixir, but will rarely instead drop a piece of Onion equipment, which only this job can use. Unfortunately, getting this job requires mognet, which may not be possible in the DS version any more (as the wi-fi connection service has been discontinued). (The original also had this job, and it was even the starting job (instead of Freelancer), but limited equipment (still the only one able to use Onion equipment), and no magic. Still horrible stats, though I think they start growing at level 88 in the original.)
* (Yes, this means the FF3r has 3 jobs that are some variant of this, or 4 if you count Freelancer (who is quickly made obsolete by Red Mage).)

So I thought about this and wanted to share some D&D 3.5 examples that came to mind:

Everyone knows the "arcane" vs "divine" division within D&D, but there are further sub-divisions. Within arcane you h ave your sorcerer/wizard spells, and you have your bard spells. There's some overlap between them, and they're the same "power source", but there are a ton of spells unique to one or the other. Ditto divine and cleric vs druid vs ranger vs paladin spells.

One class (a base class from the Heroes of Horror book) is called the Archivist. Basically think of it as a "divine wizard" who casts divine spells, but learns them through ritualistic study and books rather than just being granted them by pure devotion. As a base class, it can learn ANY divine spells (no matter which list), which is an important trait. The class itself is pretty squishy and doesn't have the strongest spellcasting advancement, but it has probably the widest variety of spells to choose from in a single class.

Then there are a couple of prestige classes (which are classes you can't take at 1st level but can grow into). Of course, there's the common Mystic Theurge one (that gets Cleric list and Wizard list). A less common one is the Fochlucan Lyricist, which is like Mystic Theurge, except for bard and druid.

EDIT: In a campaign where I was a player, I did a homebrew that was druid+cleric (two flavors of divine, but separate advancement) that worked out well. I had tooooooons of spells daily and tons of spells to choose from (basically "a spell for each special situation"), but none of them had much raw power behind them, since I wrote it also not to give up animal companion or undead-turning progression. (Tons of spells/day and choice, but lowered caster level for each.)

This reminds me of the sort of character I would like to play in such a setting, but which the rules don't seem to allow. This would be a spellcaster who is:
* An arcane caster (none of this religion stuff).
* Focused on healing. In particular, this character needs to be a primary healer (like the Cleric), which means that not only does the character need access to healing magic (which sorcerer/wizard do not), the character needs to be able to heal as well as a Cleric (which the 3.x bard does not).

In recent years, the idea that healing magic would be exclusive to religion, or would be associated with religion, doesn't sit well with me anymore. I've thought of homebrew ideas for a world where wizards get healing magic and clerics get spells of destruction and influence; I've also thought of the idea of giving all casters access to all spell lists and treating the clerics like hybrids (bard spell progression, but perhaps some fighter bonus feats in return). (Ideas are 3.x centric; converting to different editions (especially 4e, which is so different from other editions that it should have been called something different) may not be straightforward.)

Another idea is to take cleric, change the power source to arcane, replace turn undead with a familiar (including the ability to have the familiar deliver healing spells), and possibly some other changes to make the class more of a witch.

Also, it saddens me about how the 3.x multiclassing rules treat dual casters rather poorly (to the point where there need to be patches like the Mystic Theurge to fix it), when such characters worked so nicely in 1e/2e. (Then again, 1e and 2e have many issues of their own, but that's another story.)

Final Fantasy 9 (and maybe 7 and 8, i don't know as i don't ermember much of them) where even the main Tank has a Magic casting ability through Vivi, however this brings a challenge to your notion. Usually these are either offensive mages tied with tanks or healing mages tied with tanks. The big picture is to be able to take on any role at will, rather than specialize.

The problem with these classes is that, unless they can at least revive dead units, you're likely to be far better served by just about any other class, unless there's no way you can change party structure. The sentiment is nice, but they usually require over-leveling to not drag the party down with their lack of specialization. There never seems to be a situation where their ability to switch roles mid-battle is particularly useful. Instead, they tend to better serve by augmenting an existing class by either buffing the weakest chain in the link or pressing harder on an enemy party's weaknesses.

(Disclaimer: I tend to be the type that brings 2 WMs, 1 tank, and 1 black mage).

This might also be why this particular topic isn't as popular as your other ones. Red mages manage to somehow be the only party members less appreciated than white mages. However, unlike with the white mages, this tends to be earned. Blue mages nearby, as they tend to be fairly situational, as well, but the ability to go full Soma Cruz and have access to enemy abilities is almost always cool.

A special mention is Minecraft's Illusioners, managing both casting and archer roles, making them unintentionally miniboses (also demonstrating that minecraft does have an RPG triangle to it, even if it's horridly unbalanced).

This is, honestly, how I feel the Wizardry Bishop *should* have worked. Give them spells a bit faster so they have more separate spell levels than the pure casters, but still don't have the higher level spells until later. Hence, give them lots of lower level casts, but no higher level spells.

Wizardry 8's Bishop, on the other hand, is really good. Gets access to all 4 types of magic, gets more SP once you start learning spells from books (since they have more books they can learn from), but levels more slowly and has more trouble getting access to higher level spells. (If only that spell had a learnable HP restore spell that was not in the Divine realm...)

(Final Fantasy 3 remake's advanced specialized caster classes, Devout and Magus, are interesting in that they actually get *more* casts of higher level spells (especially 5th level specifically) than they do of lower level spells. Unfortunately, they still don't get enough 8th level spell casts.)

In Pathfinder (my preferred d20 variant, not the least reason of which is the full system is open source rather than just a small portion of D&D 3e), Witch can heal almost as well as a Cleric, but is an arcane caster. It doesn't just get the 'cure' spells but many of the ailment removal ones as well.

https://aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?Class=Witch

And there are some archetypes (basically, "alternate version of the class") that are even better at healing than the base Witch. https://aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?Class=Witch

(Also, on the bard note, Pathfinder has an "Arcane Healer" bard archetype https://aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?Class=Bard)

This makes me think of Final Fantasy 5's Red Mage, which is not that good of a job, for various reasons:
* Is not in the first set of jobs, so you've already invested in more focused casters, and have other new casters by the time RM appears.
* Only gets spells through 3rd level (6 spell levels in the game), and there's a huge power discrepancy between tiers of spells, making offensive and healing spells too weak later on.
* Gets poor HP, and can't use most of the later game swords.
* The only reason players use this job is to learn Double Cast, but that requires 1,159 ABP (most of any ability), so it's only feasible late game, and you have to use the job up until them.

Yet, this job *can* revive dead characters, as Raise is only 3rd level in FF5. (It costs a lot of MP, but it is usable, unlike Esuna, which costs less MP but is 4th level.)

Also to note, you can be a cleric of an *idea* an abstract ideal (usually two) rather than to a god/deity. Basically, you select two domains and your devotion to *them* is your power source. You can be devotional to healing. You're still a divine caster, getting your power from a cosmic source, but that source isn't a deity. You can even be an atheistic character this way.

Your note on making it -- I just a moment ago answered re:Pathfinder witch, but, that's basically what archetypes do, swapping out core features of a class to related alternative core features. 3.5's, in addition to Archivist I mentioned, has "Cloistered Cleric" that is "wizard with cleric list" basically. RAW, it's still Divine power source, but it's trivial to say it's otherwise.

There's also psionic healing (in 3.5) that I never delved into because I wasn't fond of the psionics rules. Pathfinder also has healing in alchemist, and in the "occult" power source (their alternative to "psionics" they did; though people speak fondly of a particular 3rd party flavor of psionics done for Pathfinder). See the Spiritualist class. There's also Oracle, which is divine, but not usually religion based. And there are numerous ways to do blasty clerics/divine (easier than the reverse) in both systems, so it's not an enjoyable exercise to discuss.

I don't really count the FF9 example because it involves two separate characters, and even then only black magic is covered. In fact, FF9 doesn't have any Red Mage or Sage type character, which is rather disappointing.

It was also disappointing how FF4 had no Red Mages, and neither Sage is available endgame, even in the versions that let you change your endgame party. (In the DS version, at least it's possible to fight the two superbosses with FuSoYa in the party.) (Also, I don't like having just one good healer; in FF4DS, I found it useful to give Bardsong to Rydia (having her use Hastemarch is *really* good when combined with Rosa's Berserk on any boss that doesn't counter physical, and I also set up Whyt to just cast healing spells for another healing option.)

FF7 and FF8 don't have defined character roles, and you can easily make a character who can do everything well. In any case, I don't think this discussion applies to these games, or to FF2 for that matter. FF6 is a grey area, though before Espers become available, Terra and Celes definitely function like Red Mages.

Final Fantasy 3 remake's Red Mage I really like. The way it works out is this:
* Before the fire crystal, there's really no useful role they can't fill well. They don't get as much MP as White/Black mages, but having more than one of them makes up for that, and low level attack spells can be cast for free with staves anyway.
* There's then a period where they aren't that good, but they at least have the option of using shields which other mages do not.
* Endgame, they are really good. With Excalibur and Crystal armor, they can nearly keep up with the fighter-type jobs in the front row, and they also have access to Curaga in case your WM/Devout/Sage is too busy doing something else (like casting Haste or Arise). Add in Ultima Weapon, and they can out-damage fighter-types who aren't using it, plus it also boosts their spells. (Ultima Weapon requires Mognet, however.)
* Only catch is that, late game, they don't get many uses of Curage, so they might not work as a primary healer. Also, attack magic isn't that great at that point; the RM's normal attack will outdamage Blizzaga/Thundaga at this point.

They're significantly weaker than Clerical healing, however, and don't get healing at all at low levels.

Then again, I think I prefer the psionic rules to the standard spellcaster rules; I find that separating magic pools by spell level never made sense to me. (At least 3.x has the rule that you can prepare a lower level spell in a higher level slot, but not all CRPGs based off that ruleset implement that rule.)

It still doesn't quite fit all character ideas; one would be a character who is a more scientifically minded healer. I want this character to use intelligence for spells, and to not need knowledge of religion (even for epic spells), as arcane or scientific knowledge would fit this concept better.

Another class idea I have would be like a cleric, but more mobile; only d6 HP (not d8) and only lighter armor, but would get many of the rogue's abilities (including evasion, more skill points, thief skills, but notably not sneak attack) in exchange.

Gloomhaven (board game) has the class for you. :)

Adding: Cult Leader archetype for Warpriest. Just flavor it as irreligious.
https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Warpriest%20Cult%20Leader

Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor [alchemist 'magic', not so great at healing but can be backup] (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Inquisitor%20Sanctified%20Slayer)

That gives me an idea, though. Remember how tactics had a squire job and a chemist job that served as intros into the more complex jobs (first battle teaching people about front row and back row)? Would be a good way to make a "general character" whom can then branch out in systems were you can either change class or you have more fluid classes. Instead of jack of all trades, master of none, jack of all trades, master of one. In my RPGs, i generally prefer more long-term building strategies, like this, anyway: instead of being cut and dry, you develop your character as you need them to be and they grow organically in response to your play style, just like an Elder Scrolls game. They say that this was one of the better aspects of Final Fantasy VII, however this also can create alot of confusion for newer players of games. If from red mage you get everyone to specialize, that doesn't make the red mage so... useless feeling. It's natural to want a red mage class, since that's the natural instinct some people have, yet such people inevitably organically move out of that direction and towards a specialty.

I would count it by virtue that Steiner is indeed a battle mage. That said, I think the issue with Vivi is that forcing him to be a member of the party to have access was a way of limiting it. I think they wanted to add more characters separately, but just didn't know what to do with them and how to fit them into the story, so Steiner in particular sticks out like a sore thumb. If you turn his armor red, he even looks like the traditional red mage of final fantay in general shape. I think our red headed wonder, Eiko, and Quina in particular made it hard to fit someone in. Eiko i wouldn't've traded for the world, but I think replacing the redhaired man with a red mage could've worked. 4 felt more strong on story than mechanics, IMO. I need to finish 6. I wasn't too fond of everyone being able to have an esper, but i think that was the experiment of that game. I really did not like 7's characters, and 8 felt like a slog to get started in, so i never went far with it. I feel, though, like 7's characters, at least, naturally gravitated towards certain things, like cloud twards warrior, Tifa towards Monk/White Mage, etc. Black Magic Cloud with a massive sword like that seems absolutely wrong on so many levels. The issue in particular with 3 is that you want to do monk/black belt as long as possible, because of the way HP grows. I liked 3's storyline, it's ideas, but i couldn't get beyond the fact that i had this insatiable need to understand i was loosing opportunity in how HP grew uniquely from other stats, so I ended up playing most of the game with monks. On one hand, i hate min-maxing, but on the other, you got that feeling in the back of your mind that if you don't, you could end up regretting it.