Posted December 16, 2020
Go patient gaming.
Have a set standard of how much you will and will not pay for a game.
Keep it moving.
The End.
Have a set standard of how much you will and will not pay for a game.
Keep it moving.
The End.
BK-Bigbank
New User
Registered: Jul 2019
From United States
lazydog
New User
Registered: Apr 2012
From United Kingdom
Posted December 16, 2020
Enough is enough. It has to be at some point, no?
Why is it that we overpay for faulty products, when they are fixed and sold for a much cheaper price within a few months? If I bought a CD, and it skipped every other track, I'd take it back for a replacement. If it kept skipping after every replacement, and after buying 50 albums, I'd probably stop buying CDs. If I bought a DVD/Blue Ray (old fashioned, I know), and it kept skipping back to the menu - I wouldn't accept it. I certainly wouldn't buy it 6 months later when all reports were that it stopped skipping. If everyone stopped buying faulty movies (or stopped streaming them), the whole movie industry would likely collapse.
If I bought a car etc etc...
Why do gamers accept shoddy workmanship so happily? Games developers ARE NOT our friends, as much as you'd maybe like to think they are. They are not on a moral crusade to save the world, or do civilisation a massive, ethereal service. They are company employees. Sometimes crunched, sometimes not - but they are JUST employees.
WHEN will we wise up to the fact that pre-purchasing games is not a good idea. Why don't we all wait for 6 months before buyng a game, at a cheaper price, when it works properly?
The now apparently widely accepted development cycle for games has to stop. It is completely outrageous and disgraceful. A game should not be "released" while the development is still underway. Maybe games should, as with food, come with a "sell by" date, and a "use by" date. Perhaps we should stop being sold games "in development", or "at launch ", and perhaps buy them with date that they are "ready" (i.e. 6-12 months after "release" date).
Enough is surely enough.
If you think enough is enough you can take back control very easily.
It is your money that dictates the way the industry is going, you simply do not play the game.
I have seen some of the replies here talking as though the problem is caused by being an old timer ;) In fact, I would say that the problem is caused by being entirely too young, impulsive and wishing for instant gratification. Everyone can take that with a pinch of salt though.
I am no spring chicken and have been gaming long enough to see gaming go the wrong way. I also remember when games did not require critical day one patches to be playable. I do not believe in a caveat that modern games should be allowed to be released in such shoddy states either. Complex does not mean complicated.
Apart from steering well clear of industry bad practices such as pre-order, early access or whatever a given platform chooses to call it, you can as many have suggested simply wait for games to become acceptable purchases, in my experience approximately one year after release.
For example roughly speaking the Witcher 3 base game released May 2015 at altogether far too much money. I purchased approx 1 year later for approx £20, which included all expansions and fixed content (wait longer as this drops even more dramatically). I was able to play this game on medium to low settings (perfectly playable and enjoyable) on an old socket 775 q9650 yorkfield with an old HD5870, the same system I use today. This system being approx 12 years old now but I appreciate is getting to the end of its lifespan. However, it is still running well.
My point is this, no need to keep up with the Jones's. Keep your expectations one or more years behind the curve and not only will you save money on both software and hardware but you will have an entirely much more pleasurable gaming experience.
iscagog
So long & thanks for the fish
Registered: Nov 2014
From United Kingdom
Posted December 16, 2020
One turned out to be 100% scam, while the other turned out to be unfinished but still good, but I might still pre-order from CDPR only again (but that solely depends on how much care CyberPunk 2077 gets). I didn't have expectations that bordered on fantasy either, so...
I wholeheartedly understand what it feels to be burned, but it's a shame that that is going to paint how one one feels about another studio. Take Coffee Stain f.ex. many are so afraid that Satisfactory going to be abandoned that they will not support them during the development, which is a shame. Early Access and partly unfinished games have sadly become the new norm, and sometime we gamers just have to dive into it in order to even get a game (preferably a good game in the end).
However, I never have and never will support anything put on a kickstarter or similarly, it's way too easy to scam people there without any repercussions.
Finally, games developers and -artists in most cases actually wants to create a good game... it's the upper management/CEOs/shareholders/publisher that most definitely aren't "our friend". Let' not forget the distinction there.
About halfway through the project it became pretty clear that the stakes for 2077 might have been a tad to ambitious and.... in a way, there is nothing wrong with how CDPR handles this outcome. Helping customers to get their money back etc
Like I said, I look forward to buying and playing it in around 6-12 months time. There might be a few people responding here who missed that I said that. I'm not complaining about something I bought in haste; I got a refund on my pre-purchase - I'm complaining about a trend. As far as CP2077 is concerned, Seems unfair that I will get a polished product for 25-50% discount, and those paying full price now are getting a poor experience with it.
Enough is enough. It has to be at some point, no?
Why is it that we overpay for faulty products, when they are fixed and sold for a much cheaper price within a few months? If I bought a CD, and it skipped every other track, I'd take it back for a replacement. If it kept skipping after every replacement, and after buying 50 albums, I'd probably stop buying CDs. If I bought a DVD/Blue Ray (old fashioned, I know), and it kept skipping back to the menu - I wouldn't accept it. I certainly wouldn't buy it 6 months later when all reports were that it stopped skipping. If everyone stopped buying faulty movies (or stopped streaming them), the whole movie industry would likely collapse.
If I bought a car etc etc...
Why do gamers accept shoddy workmanship so happily? Games developers ARE NOT our friends, as much as you'd maybe like to think they are. They are not on a moral crusade to save the world, or do civilisation a massive, ethereal service. They are company employees. Sometimes crunched, sometimes not - but they are JUST employees.
WHEN will we wise up to the fact that pre-purchasing games is not a good idea. Why don't we all wait for 6 months before buyng a game, at a cheaper price, when it works properly?
The now apparently widely accepted development cycle for games has to stop. It is completely outrageous and disgraceful. A game should not be "released" while the development is still underway. Maybe games should, as with food, come with a "sell by" date, and a "use by" date. Perhaps we should stop being sold games "in development", or "at launch ", and perhaps buy them with date that they are "ready" (i.e. 6-12 months after "release" date).
Enough is surely enough.
If you think enough is enough you can take back control very easily.
My point is this, no need to keep up with the Jones's. Keep your expectations one or more years behind the curve and not only will you save money on both software and hardware but you will have an entirely much more pleasurable gaming experience.
Sometimes, l need to remember it a little harder when a game of my dreams comes along ... eg. ones based on Viking history. That's when I am personally most at risk of being suckered :)
Post edited December 16, 2020 by iscagog
iscagog
So long & thanks for the fish
Registered: Nov 2014
From United Kingdom
Posted December 16, 2020
It is all too easy to blame the DEVs and PUBs, who certainly do need to be blamed, but really the main culprit or culprits are those who continually finance the current model ... those customers who have more money than sense ... or just no sense.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts - and apologies for copying large chunks of text. I seem to keep getting an error when editing messages, that then crashes the app.
Now that, Mrs Morissette, is ironic.
best wishes, all
kaboro
New User
Registered: Dec 2011
From Canada
Posted December 17, 2020
OP asked a very valid question, namely why is this situation acceptable to so many people.
"dont pre-order so they stop doing it" is not an answer to the question asked.
Actually nobody bothered to answer the OP's question, because they were too busy showering him with their infinite wisdom, or even putting him down.
Regardless, the question still stands unanswered, why we put up with this kind of situation, despite the fact this situation is getting worse.
My attempt at an answer would be that people get used to a bad situation and come to accept it as normality, they say something along the lines "thats how things are, why are you surprised, what are you whining about?"
Then if someone dares to criticize this "normality", they are called whiners and fools and "its their own fault they pre-ordered, serves them as a lesson".
As long as such mentalities will prevail, as long as people will happily blame the buyers instead of asking questions and demanding accountability from the corporations, the said corporations are gonna laugh and keep doing it, they dont even need to pay for the PR crisis handling, the "oh so wise" players are doing this for free.
"dont pre-order so they stop doing it" is not an answer to the question asked.
Actually nobody bothered to answer the OP's question, because they were too busy showering him with their infinite wisdom, or even putting him down.
Regardless, the question still stands unanswered, why we put up with this kind of situation, despite the fact this situation is getting worse.
My attempt at an answer would be that people get used to a bad situation and come to accept it as normality, they say something along the lines "thats how things are, why are you surprised, what are you whining about?"
Then if someone dares to criticize this "normality", they are called whiners and fools and "its their own fault they pre-ordered, serves them as a lesson".
As long as such mentalities will prevail, as long as people will happily blame the buyers instead of asking questions and demanding accountability from the corporations, the said corporations are gonna laugh and keep doing it, they dont even need to pay for the PR crisis handling, the "oh so wise" players are doing this for free.
Post edited December 17, 2020 by kaboro
TheDudeLebowski
ThatGuyWithTheThing
Registered: Oct 2011
From Other
Posted December 17, 2020
Don't you think there are exceptions, though? Developers who need the money to finish their product? (e.g. Larian with Divinity: Original Sin, RWS with Postal 4, etc)
amok
FREEEEDOOOM!!!!
Registered: Sep 2008
From United Kingdom
Posted December 17, 2020
when you do pre-orders, you should not use the mony but rather set them aside. there is no product delivered yet, and there is always the chance thatthe buyer changes their mind and you need to give the mony back, this is difficult if you have used them....
rick1981ireland
New User
Registered: Jul 2013
From United Kingdom
Posted December 17, 2020
Just follow your own moral standards. Will no longer be supporting gog or cdpr.
Do I expect these companies to go under? No. All I can do personally is boycott both platforms. I got lucky with CP2077 as I don't buy new games anymore. I always wait.
Lucky enough I only buy old games on gog and only when they are heavy sales. Must older games I want are already bought. Cdpr is just like any other games company these days now. They arent the White Knights of gamers the fanbois have you believe.
Do I expect these companies to go under? No. All I can do personally is boycott both platforms. I got lucky with CP2077 as I don't buy new games anymore. I always wait.
Lucky enough I only buy old games on gog and only when they are heavy sales. Must older games I want are already bought. Cdpr is just like any other games company these days now. They arent the White Knights of gamers the fanbois have you believe.
AB2012
Registered: Sep 2014
From United Kingdom
Posted December 17, 2020
If a developer really doesn't have the money to completely fund a game before they've finished making it, they need to do 1 of 2 things : 1. Crowd-fund it (where funders accept the risk in advance), or 2. Scale back their ambition to match their available budget.
Post edited December 17, 2020 by AB2012
Mr. Zim
Did we ever find a way ? -He/Him-
Registered: Jul 2013
From Netherlands
Posted December 17, 2020
About halfway through the project it became pretty clear that the stakes for 2077 might have been a tad to ambitious and.... in a way, there is nothing wrong with how CDPR handles this outcome. Helping customers to get their money back etc
Like I said, I look forward to buying and playing it in around 6-12 months time. There might be a few people responding here who missed that I said that. I'm not complaining about something I bought in haste; I got a refund on my pre-purchase - I'm complaining about a trend. As far as CP2077 is concerned, Seems unfair that I will get a polished product for 25-50% discount, and those paying full price now are getting a poor experience with it.
If you think enough is enough you can take back control very easily.
My point is this, no need to keep up with the Jones's. Keep your expectations one or more years behind the curve and not only will you save money on both software and hardware but you will have an entirely much more pleasurable gaming experience.
Sometimes, l need to remember it a little harder when a game of my dreams comes along ... eg. ones based on Viking history. That's when I am personally most at risk of being suckered :)
of course with current day refund policies it does seem the risk of buying something unwanted is smaller then ever
kaboro
New User
Registered: Dec 2011
From Canada
Posted December 18, 2020
The problem is the developer taking the pre-order money and delivering an unfinished product in return.
This situation is no different than an early access game that takes people's money, then when the sales slow down, they just call it a "finished product" and they are over with it.
From the list of your examples i only know Larian, and they did not do anything wrong, they delivered a finished product at the end of the early access period, and the product contained what they promised.
Sadly this is not the case of Cyberpunk.
Not trying to attack CDPR here, im sure they had a rough time, but im definitely saying the OP has a very valid point.