kohlrak: But that would be a wholly separate problem.Since it's your field, have a "field day:"
UPB Mafwek: Too nihilistic for my taste.
How the hell is that too nihilistic? The author is anything but. I'll admit he has some questions to answer regarding his proof of free will, but he's certainly not nihilistic, which is precisesly why he wrote that. He's trying to bring people out of that mentality (since there's an obvious hdeonism-nihilism connection in today's atheists).
morolf: The way I understand it, a vampire in WoD is pretty much bound to become increasingly unhuman, it's a struggle to cling to even a shred of humanity (though out of pure self-interest vampires have to try, because otherwise they become completely mindless monsters).
But I concede Bloodlines is to be commended that it didn't soft-pedal this and make vampires cuty and cuddly as in garbage like Twilight. It brought across the feeling of a dark, nihilistic world without any real hope pretty well. But for me it also meant that Grünfeld Bach and his like were fundamentally correct about vampires...in the end, all of them are monsters.
Mafwek: Hope always remains, and I wouldn't say it's nihilistic, just extremely grim. Yes, keeping the humanity gets harder with age, but not necessarily impossible. I think difficulty mostly comes from Jyhad and political machinations than their nature as the undead. Smiling Jack is 400 years old and he has humanity 4, and I doubt he had it much higher during his life since he was a pirate.
Path of humanity requires one to escape vampire power plays and achieve golconda, and while it is extremely difficult, it's not impossible.
Edit: What I found depressing is that vampires and their society ain't much different than human society in real life. That's were true existential horror lies.
And i think that in particular is the part that speaks to us. Our subconscious can pick up on things like htat even if we can't in our conscious selves. That's why the hero narrative always gets to us.
Mafwek: Path of humanity requires one to escape vampire power plays and achieve golconda, and while it is extremely difficult, it's not impossible.
Edit: What I found depressing is that vampires and their society ain't much different than human society in real life. That's were true existential horror lies.
morolf: I'm not really that familiar with the setting, but I thought golconda was possibly more something of a myth, and it's uncertain if a vampire can really achieve it.
Anyway, nice discussion here...too little of that on Gog nowadays imo.
That's because, we're talking about politics. I mean, sure, it's not republican vs democrat, nazi vs commie, etc. This is more fundamental, and it's divorced from peoples' confirmation biases because it's distant enough from what most of us intuitively have emotional reactions to. Yet, if one took the time, one would clearly see it's almost nothing to compare modern politics to what's going on in the game.
Mafwek: Well, according to the wiki, rules says it is possible, but like the setting itself, went to several revisions so it was mostly left to the game master to decide.
morolf: That was my understanding, it's left open whether it's possible, but there's no certain knowledge of any individual vampire who has actually achieved it. But you're right, there is at least some little hope left.
Caine is supposed to get it at some point. Then we have Angiwar (Nosferatu, gen 5), Aziz (Malk, gen 10), Saulot (antedeluvian), Guillaume (Brujah, Gen 5), Rebekah (Ventrue, Gen6 but Diablerized to Gen 5 [guess everyone has a shot at redemption]).
EDIT: [url=[url=https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Golconda_(VTM)#Vampires_who_were_known_to_have_reached_Golconda]Sauce[/url]https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Golconda_(VTM)#Vampires_who_were_known_to_have_reached_Golconda]Sauce[/url[/url][
