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xyem: Yeah, so I have to go and ask GOG for permission to do a big giveaway, while the key resellers.. continue what they were doing anyway, because it is easy to work around. As I've said, the restriction won't stop them. It'll only get in the way of honest users.

So disregarding everything else, it's a pointless waste of time which they could better spend.. I don't know, finally fixing the forum search? At least that would help someone!
No that would be the point, pretty easy to track when a massive amount of games are redeemed from other accounts that were bought by one account. Since there is a 5 limit, GOG can ban/disable those accounts and stop that from continuing to happen. But if you contact them first, they know your not a re-seller trying to further profit off GOG's work but simply a good person giving out gifts.

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xyem: I'm not offended. It doesn't matter what it seems like because what it seems like may just be you having experience with other people who "want to start drama over something silly", seeing as there are plenty of them.

I'm not trying to start drama, I'm just explaining that GOG is doing something it said it wouldn't do.. again and that if people don't tell them to pack it in, they'll continue doing so and by the time it gets to something big, they'll use your previous silence against you.
GOG never said they would never limit gifting as far as I know...

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xyem: I never said if any of those changes were good or bad, just that they happened.
Fair point, but if they are good or bad changes is what actually matters.

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xyem: Yeah, I've had my good faith abused too and you know what? Screw those people who abuse it, I'm not retracting it. I'll take the hits to be that awesome guy who will buy you a game on sale because you can't afford it right now and get repaid several years later after I've long forgotten about it. Why? Because most people here are genuine and I will treat you like a genuine person until you demonstrate otherwise.
Easy to say when it's just a few people, GOG gets millions of hits per month... so there customer base is fairly large. That abuse can ruin a business depending on the amount of people abusing the system.

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xyem: Lots of people doubting GOG would drop a lot of their principles, but they did and them being dropped were what people were worried about.
In my view, DRM free is the only principle GOG was ever really adamant about. The mindset on DRM has also changed in the industry, DRM free is accepted a lot more now then it has ever been. Regional pricing however has not changed, and companies are adamant about having it.
I love GOG, and, in fact, am as close to being a "fan boy" of GOG as I'll ever be to any commercial seller (which is to say not very close, but I believe the market works better when consumers are critical and demanding rather than fan boys). To me GOG is the best retailer, of any kind, I've ever experienced. Not perfect, but better than any other retailer I've dealt with, in any industry.

I hate Steam, and for years boycotted it and all Steam exclusive titles (and don't blame others if they still do) but after determining there was no putting that genie back in the bottle, I grudgingly tolerate it. Barely.

If GOG were to disappear tomorrow, I would be very sad indeed. If Steam disappeared tomorrow, I would jump my fat ass up off this couch and dance the jig.

I suppose that covers it for me.

ADDED: That said, it's back to Steam and me Civ IV empire. I just declared war on Russia, Mongolia, and the Native Americans, and have some ass kicking to do. I'm going to win this one by conquest dammit, something I've only done two or three times in all the Civ games on all the Civ titles (II, III, IV and V) I've played.
Post edited December 26, 2014 by OldFatGuy
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Tallima: And now with Galaxy, which I can't wait for so I can play some classics with multiplayer lobbies, it adds DRM. You games will be authenticated.
Online multiplayer is a service, always has been, so no it's not technically DRM. You not even entitled to it. You have also never technically been allowed be online at the same time with the same copy as someone else. But your statement may be true for games with multiplayer powered by Galaxy. I have not tested this yet, so I'm not sure if you can play a game online with a different account if you log in with a different account as the same time as someone logs in with the original account. Games with LAN/VPN ect should work fine with the same copy since you can install the game with Galaxy but play the game and bypass Galaxy completely after installation. Also Galaxy is in alpha and not done.

When I get time I may test this...
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Tallima: GOG does have to expand. I understand that. And I'm torn whether or not regional pricing is needed to make business succeed.

But I'm with xyem on this one. Regional pricing was first. And now with Galaxy, which I can't wait for so I can play some classics with multiplayer lobbies, it adds DRM. You games will be authenticated. You can no longer play with a buddy on a computer in your house. You'll be forced to have one account for each game you buy. Some games were forced into that (like Neverwinter Nights) by design. But others were not. And by the way that GOG started, they said you could play in your household by buying one copy.

xyem isn't talking about a fairy tale when he talks about GOG's primary vision and core principals. It's real. They're beginning to abandon their core identity in pursuit of a few extra sales. What I see is GOG sliding, just like xyem is saying. And if they slide enough, they will lose their identity and the whole reason people shop here.

I can't invite my brother over and we play AvP together. Because of DRM. And it's DRM that GOG wrote and built into the game. It authenticates your account. It's DRM. And GOG promised that DRM would stay far, far away. But it's here. And they're coding it themselves.

I hope that in the near future, AvP will have a DRM-free copy so I can LAN within my own household. But I don't think it will happen. I don't think they're paying attention or caring. And that makes me lose some serious hope in the company as a whole.

I'm not throwing GOG away and I'll continue to shop here b/c most of their stuff is DRM-free right now and I know they're going through a massive transition. But if things don't shape up soon and if Galaxy ends up putting DRM in all multiplayer functionality to Galaxy-enabled games, then I'll shop wherever is cheaper.

If regional pricing and DRM are what is needed to succeed in this business, then I would at least hope that GOG was brave enough to go down fighting. But it's 100% clear to me now that the DRM-free fight is just a gimmick to make money. I don't blame them, it works. But it wasn't to sway the gaming industry, as was reported. It was to make money off of old games and pay the mortgage. That's okay. But I think a lot of people here (especially the old folks) had a passion to take on the industry with fair practices and give the wheel to the consumers.

Not so, time has revealed.

I'm still glad that GOG still has many fairly priced games and DRM-free games. And I hope that the company continues to focus on fair practices. Things can always change.
They can't fight that fight if they go out of business. They should stop turning any profit and lay off employees for a dream? For a fairytale utopian world that not only DOESN'T exist, but won't? They should "go down fighting" to appease you? Sorry. Nobility doesn't pay bills and feed families. When it was a few people working together to bring old games to new gamers, it was a fight. When they started hiring people, their responsibilities changed.
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Except they won't be bought by one account, they will be bought by 100 accounts, all automatically created on the fly to do so.

I've tested this. You can create 10 accounts in about 3 minutes by hand, if you are going slowly.

Automated, you're looking at 10/second.

This isn't going to stop anything but the people who just want to give out 6 or more copies of something. And contacting GOG is not a great solution because GOG can't reply instantly and sometimes, time is of the essence (e.g. doing it because of a sale, or a product being pulled from the catalogue).

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Actually, it is the ratio of people abusing the system vs. those not abusing it.

You can have thousands of people abusing it, but millions of people not.. and you'll be fine. It's even possible for millions of people to abuse and thousands not and also be fine.
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paladin181: They can't fight that fight if they go out of business.
GOG have allowed gifting since.. 2008 (when they first opened)? This "flaw" has always been exploitable (by buying a boatload of codes while games are on sale, to sell on later).

The problem is.. GOG hasn't gone out of business due to it.

So you're going to have to explain how a model that has been working fine for 6 years is suddenly going to cause GOG to go out of business.
Post edited December 26, 2014 by xyem
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xyem: if I didn't, that may have been caused by.. I don't know.. GOG saying they were doing really well?

And they can also do this by selling games with DRM too. You cannot justify it using this argument without justifying them selling games with DRM in the same breath.

Exactly. If it is there and legal, why is GOG trying to stop it? Because they don't like it? People who sell games don't like piracy either and they implement DRM to stop it. Seriously, if you are okay with this, you are okay with DRM because it is the same solution to the same problem (it's just cheap vs. free) and will be just as effective (namely not at all).

If GOG aren't happy with people acquiring the game at the cheap price point they are selling it at, they shouldn't sell it at that cheap price point. This is like me punching you in the face for being in my house after I invited you in.

GOG should just accept that some people will get the game cheap (through a reseller), like it just accepts that some people will get the game free (through piracy). You can't stop either of them, it is pointless to try, and only the people you care about, and care about you, will suffer.
I actually AM ok with DRM to an extent and really hope they find the magic one that won't impact paying customers while still protecting their property. Piracy in general is rampant and is pretty bad. I dislike it and would love to see real change enacted to stop it that don't violate freedoms of innocent people and don't impede paying customers from easily and readily accessing their games. DRM isn't evil, but it's implementation currently is. DRM as a concept is good. It protects products from illegal copying. However, I hate that most DRM negatively impacts customers who did nothing wrong except buy the games infected with these drastic and ultimately ineffective DRM measures.
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xyem: Except they won't be bought by one account, they will be bought by 100 accounts, all automatically created on the fly to do so.

I've tested this. You can create 10 accounts in about 3 minutes by hand, if you are going slowly.

Automated, you're looking at 10/second.

This isn't going to stop anything but the people who just want to give out 6 or more copies of something. And contacting GOG is not a great solution because GOG can't reply instantly and sometimes, time is of the essence (e.g. doing it because of a sale, or a product being pulled from the catalogue).
No re-seller trying to actually make money is going to do this by hand, simply not productive enough for the time spent trying to do that.
Second, with any automated systems there are ways to slow/stop such processes.

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xyem: Actually, it is the ratio of people abusing the system vs. those not abusing it.

You can have thousands of people abusing it, but millions of people not.. and you'll be fine. It's even possible for millions of people to abuse and thousands not and also be fine.
Fair point, but it can easily not be in your favor and frankly not worth the risk for any business.
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xyem: Except they won't be bought by one account, they will be bought by 100 accounts, all automatically created on the fly to do so.

I've tested this. You can create 10 accounts in about 3 minutes by hand, if you are going slowly.

Automated, you're looking at 10/second.

This isn't going to stop anything but the people who just want to give out 6 or more copies of something. And contacting GOG is not a great solution because GOG can't reply instantly and sometimes, time is of the essence (e.g. doing it because of a sale, or a product being pulled from the catalogue).

Actually, it is the ratio of people abusing the system vs. those not abusing it.

You can have thousands of people abusing it, but millions of people not.. and you'll be fine. It's even possible for millions of people to abuse and thousands not and also be fine.
GOG have allowed gifting since.. 2008 (when they first opened)? This "flaw" has always been exploitable (by buying a boatload of codes while games are on sale, to sell on later).

The problem is.. GOG hasn't gone out of business due to it.

So you're going to have to explain how a model that has been working fine for 6 years is suddenly going to cause GOG to go out of business.
GoG is getting bigger. In 2008 almost no one knew about GoG, and their customer base was very small. Now they have a LOT of people out there buying from them. The bigger something gets, the more damage things like this do. Basically it's like any company. They make money and start really raking in the dough. Then they expand and their profit is all tied up in the costs of expansion. In the case of GoG it's download servers and licensing fees for bigger and broader publishers, as a start. So even though they're making more money than they ever did, they really aren't bringing in any more than they were before because overhead costs expand. This is what causes many companies to go out of business, because it flourishes and you can't unring the bell. Profits drop off a little and suddenly you're in crisis because it's impossible to move backwards to where you were in simpler times. So something that they wouldn't even care to look for in 2008 or 2010 could literally cripple them today.
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xyem: GOG have allowed gifting since.. 2008 (when they first opened)? This "flaw" has always been exploitable (by buying a boatload of codes while games are on sale, to sell on later).

The problem is.. GOG hasn't gone out of business due to it.

So you're going to have to explain how a model that has been working fine for 6 years is suddenly going to cause GOG to go out of business.
It's more about the future than the past. Many many people avoid GOG because it lacks a client comparable to Steam. People want this. Plain and simple. Galaxy could make GOG really take off, and open it to all the issues that plague steam including re-sellers that not only profit off others work, but hurt potential consumers that may have gotten a better deal at the source of the sale (rather that be GOG or Steam).

Has does that look when you buy some key somewhere that may be more than GOG is selling it when your directed to GOG to get the product. Of course this isn't always the case depending on what country the keys were bought from but it makes GOG look bad either way really.
Post edited December 26, 2014 by user deleted
GOG has a strong brand and if they lose that brand identity, then they'll be a direct Steam-clone. And then they'll die.

GOG doesn't survive by being big. It survives by being different.
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paladin181: I actually AM ok with DRM to an extent and really hope they find the magic one that won't impact paying customers while still protecting their property.
This is very unlikely, if not impossible, to achieve. It's definitely not possible for GOG to make one (and you'll know this if you remember the GraveTone incident).

Here is why it is impossible:
A DRM that does not verify against anything outside of the users control, can be made to verify all the time (as the user can control it completely), making the DRM breakable.
A DRM that does verify against something outside of the users control, will always eventually impede them by that component failing.

For example, the first category are things like CD checks (can be made to think the CD is in == changing its reality), serial keys (generators or simple sharing), stuff like that.
The second category is things like authenticating with remote servers (impeded without connection to servers, for whatever reason), authentication dongles etc.

What you describe is a utopian DRM that has not only never existed, it can't exist. At least the GOG utopia existed for a while (and we could go back to it).
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paladin181:
Exactly, even given the worst way of working around it, you can do so in under 5 minutes. My point was how ineffective this will be as a defense against this sort of attack. It's like holding up a wet piece of paper in front of your face to block the incoming fist.

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paladin181:
That's the problem, you can't stop it.. you may be able to slow it down.. briefly. It is an arms race and GOG will lose it because increasing the disruption to the bad actors will increase the disruption to the good actors. And seeing as there are far more good actors than bad, you will always be doing more harm than good.

People who buy GOG games cheap from resellers are looking to minimise their costs. They aren't going to make a jump up to buying it from GOG, they are going to go down and pirate it.
Post edited December 26, 2014 by xyem
It seems like GOG is just doing something stupid to appease their publishers. We'll see if actually changes the behavior of creepy Russian key resellers. But my guy says xyem's right. They'll just keep selling keys.

P.S. I'd feel more comfortable pirating than using a key reseller myself.

PPS. Bedtime! Goodnight everyone!

PPPS: Great discussion, guys. I see everyone's points clearly. They all seem to stem from what people expect and want from GOG. What I like is that we can give our input and GOG can choose their path. Either way, I don't think our favorite electronic hobby is in danger. Perhaps just a bit more annoying from time to time.
Post edited December 26, 2014 by Tallima
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xyem: Exactly, even given the worst way of working around it, you can do so in under 5 minutes. My point was how ineffective this will be as a defense against this sort of attack. It's like holding up a wet piece of paper in front of your face to block the incoming fist.
If it not really productive it not really a valid option is it? Those that get around the system doing this won't gain much and GOG won't lose much anyway.

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xyem: That's the problem, you can't stop it.. you may be able to slow it down.. briefly. It is an arms race and GOG will lose it because increasing the disruption to the bad actors will increase the disruption to the good actors. And seeing as there are far more good actors than bad, you will always be doing more harm than good.

People who buy GOG games cheap from resellers are looking to minimise their costs. They aren't going to make a jump up to buying it from GOG, they are going to go down and pirate it.
I'm not going to argue this, but one could argue that there is... it's simply weighing if it's worth it against how much you want to inconvenience your legit users. Sites do it all the time with captcha, email verification... things an automated system isn't good at doing, but a pain for real users.
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huN73R: Steam

Pros
Large Catalog of Games
Many sales

Cons
Trolls in Community
Scammers (Too many) and Cheaters
Really bad support
You don't really own your games there

GOG

Pros
Great Community
All games play on your system great (old or new)
Ability to get in touch with staff and a responsive support system
DRM-free

Cons
Limited selection compared to Steam
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zeroxxx: As for me, I'll add a bit more:

Steam

Pro: Cheap games (regionally priced for my country)// Yes
Trading system //Who Cares?I don't
Community system (GOG looks so pathetic in this aspect)// Looks Ok to me
Auto updates// Very Good
Workshop //Nexus kills it (Mods)
Dota 2 (yes unbeatable game)// Don't Play,Don't Care

Con: Now all region locked// Tough!!!

GOG:

Con: Bad pricing for me// Prices are fair
No community features// Big Deal!!!
Bad gifting system// Yes Problems
No auto updates (will be fixed by Galaxy)// Full games which you keep
How many games from Steam do you
own.Unless it's DRM the answer is Zilch
Now I'll will amend it a bit (see above right hand side)Your Pros and Cons seem to favour Steam,and that's fair enough as everyone is entitled to an opinion.
The right hand add ons are my opinions,if anyone objects that's ok just do it respectfully..
Post edited December 26, 2014 by gunsynd
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paladin181: I actually AM ok with DRM to an extent and really hope they find the magic one that won't impact paying customers while still protecting their property.
Same here. The closest one to that I can think of would be watermarking of games (ie. if you shared your purchased game around, it could possibly be tracked back to you by the IP rights holders, ie. they'd know you were the original owner of the license of that copy which is being shared around).

Wikipedia considers watermarking as a form of DRM, so I guess it can be mentioned as an example. :) Watermarking would not affect me at all even if the store or the IP rights holder closed its doors some day, nor they could enforce afterwards that they don't want me to install/play that copy of the game anymore after purchase. Yet, it would still be a reason for me not to share the game around to the world (if I was so inclined), as I wouldn't want to be known as the potential source for the pirated version.


The other option I would be fine with is that the games would have DRM during e.g. the first year of their existence, and then be ripped off of it. Ie. I would have a binding promise from the store/publisher that the game(s) will be completely DRM-free at a certain date, or money back.
Post edited December 26, 2014 by timppu