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Mafwek: Looking back, I shouldn't have said "all way", in my previous statement.

Well, if playing the way you want isn't efficient enough to overcome the game's challenges, only options I see are either to play the game efficiently (and thus not play the game exactly the way you want) or to lower the difficulty to manageable level.
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amok: Or, and this is the main point, you do not need to play the game "efficiently". You need to play the game "fun".

I play games to have fun, min/maxing always felt more like work to me than fun. I like a game that gives me a challange, but also do not force me into playing it a specific way. Min/maxing is play by numbers, it has no interest to me. I do not need to "break" a game to enjoy it, rather often it is the oposite.

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dtgreene: And, importantly, not be penalized for doing so, which is how the Morrowind/Oblivion leveling system feels.
[...]
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amok: Not to me
This 100%.
I play big "Open World RPG's" for Roleplaying and for fun.
And as i said there are enough reddit threads + my own personal experience that have prooven that min/maxing is not necessary. (On the normal, middle difficult. For that the game was developed and balanced.)
It's just this powergamer "min/max mindset" has not much to do with "Roleplaying."
They think because +5 is the highest possible bonus for a stat, that you can reach. That you allways have to get it, No matter what. They think that the devs even want you to play this way. But this is not true and was never their intention.

Most devs are not pretty good gamers. They don't develop an RPG with min/maxing in their mind.
Why should a Mage be as durable as a Warrior, who lives for the battle and hand to hand combat?
There are enough ways to avoid damage as a mage.
The Skyrim "Players Mindset" is the problem here. Because most of them don't play for the RPG experience.
No, they want their character to be able to do everything.
No matter how ridiculous it sounds or look, if a warrior became archmage of the college.
The Oblivion leveling system was not and never builded with the intention to allways take a +5.

And as i said there has been enough evidence collected over the years, to proof this. There are enough reddit threads with user's who played in a natural way. Not maxing endurance, just leveling their major skills and taking +2 or +3 bonuses on level up. And still ending as powerful character's.

And i am out here now.
I respect other opinions and can live with that.
Just one final word on this, especialy to the Skyrim Players.
A character that is good on everything has nothing to do with roleplaying. And yes, this also counts for character's who are like this: It does not fit my character in any way, but i also want smithing and enchanting. Because i want to be overpowered, no matter how easy the game becomes in the end.
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amok: Min/maxing is play by numbers, it has no interest to me.
Play by numbers is the sort of thing that appeals to me.

(It's the main reason I like many incremental games, which have a lot of numbers, some of them huge, in them.)
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amok: Or, and this is the main point, you do not need to play the game "efficiently". You need to play the game "fun".

I play games to have fun, min/maxing always felt more like work to me than fun. I like a game that gives me a challange, but also do not force me into playing it a specific way. Min/maxing is play by numbers, it has no interest to me. I do not need to "break" a game to enjoy it, rather often it is the oposite.

Not to me
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Lenah-Witch: This 100%.
I play big "Open World RPG's" for Roleplaying and for fun.
And as i said there are enough reddit threads + my own personal experience that have prooven that min/maxing is not necessary. (On the normal, middle difficult. For that the game was developed and balanced.)
It's just this powergamer "min/max mindset" has not much to do with "Roleplaying."
They think because +5 is the highest possible bonus for a stat, that you can reach. That you allways have to get it, No matter what. They think that the devs even want you to play this way. But this is not true and was never their intention.

Most devs are not pretty good gamers. They don't develop an RPG with min/maxing in their mind.
Why should a Mage be as durable as a Warrior, who lives for the battle and hand to hand combat?
There are enough ways to avoid damage as a mage.
The Skyrim "Players Mindset" is the problem here. Because most of them don't play for the RPG experience.
No, they want their character to be able to do everything.
No matter how ridiculous it sounds or look, if a warrior became archmage of the college.
The Oblivion leveling system was not and never builded with the intention to allways take a +5.

And as i said there has been enough evidence collected over the years, to proof this. There are enough reddit threads with user's who played in a natural way. Not maxing endurance, just leveling their major skills and taking +2 or +3 bonuses on level up. And still ending as powerful character's.

And i am out here now.
I respect other opinions and can live with that.
Just one final word on this, especialy to the Skyrim Players.
A character that is good on everything has nothing to do with roleplaying. And yes, this also counts for character's who are like this: It does not fit my character in any way, but i also want smithing and enchanting. Because i want to be overpowered, no matter how easy the game becomes in the end.
The issue isn't about whether to powegame, but rather than the original leveling mechanics are inherently *terrible*.

I understand that a mage optimized for spellcasting wouldn't be the most durable character (assuming I don't max Restoration/Alteration and take advantage of Fortify Health/Vitality and Shield spells), but choosing to go magic to some degree at first and raising Endurance later (because I feel like I'm dying too often) shouldn't lead to a strictly worse character long-term than one who raises Endurance first and then starts working on spell-casting.

If the game is balanced around +2 or +3 bonuses to stats, why not just give the player those bonuses automatically at level up, instead of giving characters +1 or +5 bonuses based on what skills happened to level up during that arbitrary level-up boundary.

It's not about powergaming; it's about an ugly and poorly designed system.
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Lenah-Witch: Most devs are not pretty good gamers. They don't develop an RPG with min/maxing in their mind.
This claim is at odds with my experience, and what I've read. In fact, there's the problem where, if the developer thinks the game is moderately challenging, it could easily be unmanageable for typical players.

In fact, there's this quote that I stumbled across when using Google Translate on a Japanese game walkthrough:
"The author lowers the difficulty level to the point where he thinks it is a little too easy, and only then will it become moderately difficult for others," BEEP once wrote.
Post edited 5 days ago by dtgreene
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Lenah-Witch: The Skyrim "Players Mindset" is the problem here. Because most of them don't play for the RPG experience.
No, they want their character to be able to do everything.
No matter how ridiculous it sounds or look, if a warrior became archmage of the college.
The Oblivion leveling system was not and never builded with the intention to allways take a +5.
Getting a character who's actually good at everything takes a long time

Consider, for example, that Skyrim has a secret boss you're meant to fight only after you've done pretty much everything and become good at nearly everything. To actually get that NPC to appear, you have to be level 80, in a game where maxing every single skill "only" takes you to level 81. (That's the cap without Legendary skills, and they weren't even added until version 1.9 of the original.)
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amok: Min/maxing is play by numbers, it has no interest to me.
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dtgreene: Play by numbers is the sort of thing that appeals to me.

(It's the main reason I like many incremental games, which have a lot of numbers, some of them huge, in them.)
I was using the terms is in "Paint by numbers", i.e. the way you have to play is prescribed, and if you go off that path you have crippled yourself. I like to paint with an empty canvas where I can paint what I want, with the colors I want.
Post edited 5 days ago by amok