CD keys are restrictions. Sometimes the CD key information is printed on the computer, let's say the bottom of the laptop. If you want to sell the laptop and keep using the operating system, what happens then?

Are you free to do whatever you want with the OS you paid for, if it's PHYSICALLY bound to hardware you also bought, but later decided to sell? These days there aren't even separate OS installation CDs, the OS is pre-installed on some recovery segment on the hard drive!

Also, some Windows upgrade versions require the original installation media of a previous version to check whether or not the upgrade installation can proceed. That's a bit more than what "use the product any way you wanted" implies to me.

Like said, the last time Windows didn't ask anything or performed any online checks was Windows for Workgroups 3.11, or maybe I have missed some version which behaved otherwise.

I don't know if you happen to be a Windows 10 user, but that system has Windows update system, which can't be prevented! If something updates on your computer, beyond your control, hypothetically and possibly breaking backwards compatibility with some software, that's a form of DRM too!
DRM is a broader concept than just copy protection. It's about how much control you have over your own hardware and software. The direction where Windows is and has been heading is an Apple-like closed environment, where the user has very little, if any, control over things.


You know very well that you can use whatever OS and whatever browser to download games from GOG, as long as it's able to start the download. There are even third party download scripts for GOG. The only possible thing which could be considered as "DRM" is authentication, but beyond that, there's no limitations.

Steam can be only used with their own client, which does whatever it wants, beyond any user control. If you try to use some third party scripts to download stuff from Steam, most likely you will end up banned.

It is somewhat ironic, that Steam actually allows customers to BUY stuff without their client, but it doesn't allow them to USE stuff without their client. With GOG-like services, once you manage to log in, you are good to go for everything.


Yes, some games are "DRM-free" in the sense that the workaround is very easy. But zipping the files, or even more simply, creating a shortcut which starts the game exe instead of Steam client, is still a workaround, isn't it? If you use those games the way they were installed, Steam client is started each and every time!

I think that we'd need to define DRM "levels", so we won't discuss every time about details.

Example on the fly (not precise at all):
- level 1 - hardware DRM, BIOS - Intel ME, TPM, SGX, HDCP, Secure Boot (systems out of OS' or complete user's control).
- level 2 - OS DRM - Windows activation, genuine check (usually limited to 1 account or 1-N computers).
- level 3 - software DRM systems - Securom, Safedisc (1-N activations, online check).
- level 4 - access restriction, time-limited or with online check - Steam client, any program activation (1 account, 1-N PCs).
- level 5 - access restriction, not-expiring offline check - mostly old game & programs install keys (some tied to 1-N PCs).
..etc..

Gog has level 4-5 to download games or to play some multiplayer ones (acceptable for me, at the moment).

gaben is not fat! he is weighty! like mountains! or old fashioned trains! or the passing of centuries!

In Walter Sobchak's voice: "Dude, the client is not the issue here!".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dky_V_3izXI#t=31

What kind of client is required doesn't matter to the definition of DRM. It is what that client does and requires from you. If GOG games required you to log in to your GOG account online whenever you want to install or play any of your GOG games (in order to check that you really have purchased those games), using any web browser you want, it would still be DRM, regardless of giving you several options to choose a client.

Steam client can do nothing about the DRM-free Steam games you've zipped and moved to another PC. They are and remain DRM-free.

As for third-party scripts or tools, see above. It doesn't matter to the definition of DRM which client(s) can be used for downloading (and/or installing or playing) your games; it is about what that client does and controls for your games. And it is useless to talk whether the "client is DRM", if the client doesn't even have to be used with all the games.

I asked this before in this thread: if the only way to download GOG installers would be with the old GOG Downloader client (no option to use web browsers instead), would you then say that the games are not DRM-free? Many people, me included, seemed to be fine using the GOG Downloader, and we didn't feel the games we had downloaded with it would be less DRM-free, because of the client we used to get the game delivered to us. The important thing was that we didn't have to use the client to install and play the game, so that it would have checked at that point whether we are eligible to install/play the games.

Depends what you mean by "use". For clarity, I divided the process to e.g. these:

1. Purchasing a game.
2. Delivering the game (with digital games, that means downloading the game).
3. Installing the game.
4. Playing the game.

To me, the first two (purchasing and delivering) are completely irrelevant in the discussion about DRM.

That's nitpicking... no, that is even worse! That is PITNICKING!

E.g. Humble Store sells some DRM-free games that don't come with an installer at all. Just a zip file you uncompress to some folder, and create a shortcut to the game exe file (or run the exe directly). I think those games are still DRM-free.

Similarly, if a Steam game can be used similarly after it has been delivered to you (with the Steam client), then I see it just as DRM-free as those Humble Store games.

More than 99% of games on GOG would continue to work flawlessly if GOG went bankrupt tomorrow, with notable exception maybe Gwent and similar games.

Most if not all popular games on Valve wouldn't continue unless maybe someone patches them (not sure it is possible to patch the multiplayer part at all though). However, there are also quite a number of (relatively unpopular) Steam games which would continue to work because they do not use the "DRM feature" of Steam.

Just for completeness: DRM also includes the ability to install on new computers and the definition of DRM with multiplayer games requiring game servers is a bit difficult.

Just for the sake of information, I'd would like to give my 2 cents on the "what would matter if steam..." matter.

As many other power users already stated in the previous pages/posts, as long the game sold on steam is drm-free, all you had to do is to backup the installed game (steam games aren't truly installed, it's more of an unpacking process and adding a few keys in the regedit here and there) and you are good to go.

Problem is that for the majority of games sold there, it's not the case.

First of all, if games use the steamworks feature, the game WILL BE dependant on the steam api (DLC for the related games too).

What does that means? Two possible scenarios:

1) Valve will truly follow his statement (sorry, but I still call it BS) and will provide an emulator which will completely emulate the original steam api;

2) Use of the cracking scene emulation; basically what valve themselves could achieve and share upon their demise.

The problem in both cases is that you can't make something universal, you still need to manually input some informations, such the steamapp ID for X game and DLC, which would require not only time for each game to setup, but even hunting for hose IDs in the first place.

BUT the real issue here is for any other game using another layer of DRM on top of steamworks (most used nowadays are Arxan and Denuvo), which would prevent the game from running even with the steam workaround.

A bit late getting back to you. Is that correct? Coulda sworn I read that their DRM-free installers worked like the gOg installers, wherein once it's downloaded you can install the game whenever / wherever / etc. If they don't work the same way, in my opinion then that's a not-quite-customer-friendly version of DRM-free, since portability isn't always as simple as just copying files (registry entries and whatnot).

Actually, back in the day, for some of the old games weren't some of the Steam installers actually the gOg-massaged installers?

For me, it's all academic. I don't use Steam. Curious, tho.

If there are, at least I don't know where they would be.

You may be thinking of some reporting the Steam version having files from the GOG version (proving that the Steam version was based on the GOG version), e.g. I recall someone saying that about the the Carmageddon games on Steam. A bit like how many GOG games have remnants of the Steam version like some Steam dll dummy file or something.

To my understanding many Steam games do any necessary registry entries and such when you run the game the first time.

Anyway, I am specifically talking about Steam games that don't really need any extra work to get it work, besides copying the installed files to a new PC and play there by double-clicking the game executable (and in the worst case installing some common dependencies like DirectX9; many GOG games require the same). If there are extra steps that are not fully apparent to everyone, like adding registry entries manually, changing some config file, removing or renaming some Steam dll file... then I don't consider the game really DRM-free (even if it might be possible to turn it into DRM-free with some simple(?) steps).

It is a bit like the DRM-free(?) games on GamersGate. GamersGate even marketed them as DRM-free, but apparently you had to do a certain workaround to get genuinely DRM-free set of the files, something like that when you were downloading the installation files with the GamersGate download client, you had to copy the files from the temporary directory to somewhere else before you hit the exit button in the client. Otherwise you wouldn't have a truly DRM-free set of the files.

Many HumbleBundle DRM-free games don't have a proper installer either, just a zip file which you uncompress and then locate the game exe file which you run. IIRC e.g. Pony Island was like that (I have it on Humble), it worked fine.

Not sure what you mean by "Steam installers". As far as I can tell, when you hit the "install" button on the Steam client, it merely downloads all the game files straight into your Steam game directory, it doesn't download any separate "installer". Then, usually when you run the game the first time, it may install some common dependencies, probably adds registry entries at that point etc., if needed.

I presume Galaxy works somewhat similarly, when you download and install a GOG game through it.

Don't you love the ambiguity of the term "DRM-Free"? Not even GOG itself can (or want to) define it.

Huh. Okay. I didn't realize that. Whenever I heard about "DRM-free" installers from Steam, I figured they worked like gOg's do.

Wish I could find the threads, but I seem to recall that way early on some of the old games that gOg got working on new systems would shortly appear on Steam with the gOg installers. Wasn't many of them, though. Or maybe the fog of memory has me recalling this not quite correctly.

Not the installers. Just the files, including the GOG-exclusive ones.