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General discussionPhoenix Point aims for the feet, is Epic exclusive for a year.(239 posts)(239 posts)
(239 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 13, 2019
Julian Gollop confirmed in the AMA that the game will be DRM free on release, and will run without the Epic launcher. Sounds like good news to me.
Posted March 13, 2019
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misteryo: The letter you wrote, other backers seeking refunds, more backers contacting the devs to express how important the change in platform is... All this is how to drive home to the devs how their business decision is affecting their customers. What we will all find out over time is how many people are as unhappy with the change as you are.

FWIW, I sympathize with you and I think the company should take pains to make sure you are paid back in full.

Most of my arguing in this thread is aimed at countering the statements that this is illegal, that it amounts to fraud, that the devs are evil, etc. The dev is a game designer and businesperson who clearly did not think changing the platform the game will be released on was all that big a deal. It seems like he is finding out otherwise from his backers. But, nobody is going to win a fraud complaint at the FTC. Nobody can prove that the change of platform caused them "damage" legally speaking. And with the offer of refunds and extra keys on other platforms down the road, the devs are going to be pretty bulletproof when it comes to the law.

I hope you get your money back, PaterAlf.
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PaterAlf: I agree with most that you wrote. But there's one exception. Fig is not just a crowdfunding platform like Kickstarter. You can also give them money as an investor (minimum investment would be $1000). Not sure how many investors they had and how much money these people invested, but I think they might have a problem with the game not releasing on Steam and GOG (mostly Steam). And they might even be able to proove that the developers move hurt them financially.

Really looking forward to the AMA tonight. That should really get interesting. *walks away to prepare popcorn*
That's true about investors. I have not heard any hubbub about that at all.

What do you think now that it is revealed that the Epic game will be DRM-free?
Posted March 13, 2019
You still would have to use their mandatory client/launcher/malware to obtain and install the game though. Which is anything but good news.
Posted March 13, 2019
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Swedrami: You still would have to use their mandatory client/launcher/malware to obtain and install the game though. Which is anything but good news.
Really not that big a deal, since you can then uninstall it and be done with it.
Posted March 13, 2019
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Swedrami: You still would have to use their mandatory client/launcher/malware to obtain and install the game though. Which is anything but good news.
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misteryo: Really not that big a deal, since you can then uninstall it and be done with it.
That's a weak DRM that can easily be bypassed, but not really DRM-Free, if there is no offline installer.
Posted March 13, 2019
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misteryo: Really not that big a deal, since you can then uninstall it and be done with it.
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Lone_Scout: That's a weak DRM that can easily be bypassed, but not really DRM-Free, if there is no offline installer.
That's a matter of interpretation, just like the law.
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misteryo: But, nobody is going to win a fraud complaint at the FTC. Nobody can prove that the change of platform caused them "damage" legally speaking.
I would guess that's the main difference between the EU and the US. In US you have to prove some type of financial damage (and you actually admitted it would be for "investors" further down in a response to PateAlf), while in most countries in Europe this would be considered a form of scam/fraud.

In Europe we have stronger laws against false advertisements and scams, among other things. I imaging it would be really difficult to try this in a court in the US, or even a complaint to FTC.
Post edited March 13, 2019 by sanscript
Posted March 13, 2019
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Lone_Scout: That's a weak DRM that can easily be bypassed, but not really DRM-Free, if there is no offline installer.
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sanscript: That's a matter of interpretation, just like the law.
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misteryo: But, nobody is going to win a fraud complaint at the FTC. Nobody can prove that the change of platform caused them "damage" legally speaking.
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sanscript: I would guess that's the main difference between the EU and the US. In US you have to prove some type of financial damage (and you actually admitted it would be for "investors" further down in a response to PateAlf), while in most countries in Europe this would be considered a form of scam/fraud.

In Europe we have stronger laws against false advertisements and scams, among other things. I imaging it would be really difficult to try this in a court in the US, or even a complaint to FTC.
I actually hadn't thought about the investors until PaterAlf brought it up. All along I was talking about regular backers. On Fig, unlike Kickstarter, there is, in addition to the regular backers, an opportunity to invest in the production of the game. Those investments are handled through securities and trading laws - a whole other kettle of fish.

As far as the EU goes, though, I'd like to see you back up your assertion about the law protecting crowdfunding backers. I know that the EU was looking at passing some legislation regarding crowdfunding in 2015. I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of it. But it looks to me like even the EU recognizes some basic differences between crowdfunding and a purchase , legally speaking.

Whether the EU would protect one of their citizens in this particular case, I don't know. But it still seems clear to me that it would be considered as a crowdfunding transaction, not as a purchase.
Posted March 13, 2019
I wonder when devs are going to understand 99% of Fortnite players (as with most free to play game) are kids who don't have access to their parents card. That's why it's free to play.

Sure, it's making tons on money, but I doubt there are particular big spenders there.
Post edited March 13, 2019 by BeatriceElysia
Posted March 13, 2019
That's a bummer. I was really looking forward to playing it. Any chance of it coming to GOG later?
Post edited March 13, 2019 by Fortuk
Posted March 13, 2019
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BeatriceElysia: I wonder when devs are going to understand 99% of Fortnite players (as with most free to play game) are kids who don't have access to their parents card. That's why it's free to play.
Sure, but the remaining 1% are the"whales" that get badly hooked and spend tons of money, and they are the people every FTP game is aimed at.
Posted March 13, 2019
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sergeant_citrus: Julian Gollop confirmed in the AMA that the game will be DRM free on release, and will run without the Epic launcher. Sounds like good news to me.
a bit too late for acrobatics backflipping damage control...

glad to hear that, but i'm still not interested by epic as a store for purchase and client for digital distribution of said purchase...

plus, a great move that threw under the bus of suspicion and defiance any other legit crowdfunding projects that will probably loose potential support of people who got upset by this one last straw for them...
Posted March 13, 2019
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Fortuk: That's a bummer. I was really looking forward to playing it. Any chance of it coming to GOG later?
It will be on GOG and Steam one year later (Sep, 2020).

Edit: Here's another thing - it appears that so called free DLCs for all Fig backers will be free only for Epic Store version.
Post edited March 13, 2019 by AWG43
Posted March 13, 2019
The thing with FIG investing is, the investors aren't investing directly on the game, they are investing in FIG stock. While they get their money back based on the sales of the game, the FIG is the entity whose stocks they actually buy:

https://help.fig.co/hc/en-us/articles/115002878367-Am-I-investing-in-the-developer-or-the-game-itself-
Posted March 13, 2019
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sergeant_citrus: Julian Gollop confirmed in the AMA that the game will be DRM free on release, and will run without the Epic launcher. Sounds like good news to me.
Well, aside from the need of an additional client and login info.
Posted March 13, 2019
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misteryo: What do you think now that it is revealed that the Epic game will be DRM-free?
I don't want to create an Epic account and I don't want to install and use their launcher (which you'll need to update the game). I also don't use Steam or any other service that needs a mandatory client.
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Community
General discussionPhoenix Point aims for the feet, is Epic exclusive for a year.(239 posts)(239 posts)
(239 posts)