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Lifthrasil:
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Cavalary: Oh, there's more. Asked them to at least not mark it as solved when it's not, and got one more reply:

"We did our part in forwarded the case to the appropriate team.
I'm afraid there's nothing else we (Support) can do on our side in this situation. I hope for your understanding."

And was "solved" again.
Which just proves, again, that GOG doesn't see DRM as a problem to be solved anymore.
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Lifthrasil:
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Cavalary: Oh, there's more. Asked them to at least not mark it as solved when it's not, and got one more reply:

"We did our part in forwarded the case to the appropriate team.
I'm afraid there's nothing else we (Support) can do on our side in this situation. I hope for your understanding."

And was "solved" again.
Unfortunately that is often the case with EVERY game with technical problems. I've critizised this a lot of times and even replied to GOG telling them that this for the customer is not a valid solution ... especially since in most cases you NEVER hear from the other department also known as "product" anything in the future. I must have at least 10 of those cases now ... all "solved" and in each case I ended up with a workaround I did by myself to fix the games in question. I even TOLD GOG about my workarounds but they still don't implement them. This is really a bad way of GOG to handle such things. Don't get me wrong: this is not against support since - like it has been said - support is only responsible as long as it is just about telling customers what they can do. Whenever you need to change something in the game they'll have to forward it to "product" and in some cases they would have to forward the request to the devs ... simply HOPING that they will fix it - or even reply. It boggles my mind how GOG could think that this would be a solution for anybody. People should request refunds whenever this happens ... MAYBE then they will change this unaccaptable behaviour. It's something not support needs to change, it is simply a policy GOG needs to change in general.

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Cavalary: Oh, there's more. Asked them to at least not mark it as solved when it's not, and got one more reply:

"We did our part in forwarded the case to the appropriate team.
I'm afraid there's nothing else we (Support) can do on our side in this situation. I hope for your understanding."

And was "solved" again.
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Lifthrasil: Which just proves, again, that GOG doesn't see DRM as a problem to be solved anymore.
Not really. It simply means that "support" is done and now it is up to "product" to do their part ... which - like I said - might lead to nothing as well. If you would get feedback from "product" (which never happens and which also is not intended) you really would have your final answer. Then again, I am pretty sure the reply would be "We reached out to the devs but they told us that they can't/won't change this ... if you want you can refund the game in question. Sorry for the inconvenience".
Post edited November 20, 2020 by MarkoH01
It seems the next stage of escalation would be for people who care about DRM-free to write negative reviews for No Man's Sky and other games on GOG that violate their advertised 'DRM-free' policy. Imo, it wouldn't really count as 'review bombing', since if a game contains DRM, then it is objectively a defective product and should not be on GOG in the first place. Surely potential buyers deserve a fair warning? The tiny 'smallprint' they have added to the store page seems rather inadequate.
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Lifthrasil: Which just proves, again, that GOG doesn't see DRM as a problem to be solved anymore.
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MarkoH01: Not really. It simply means that "support" is done and now it is up to "product" to do their part ... which - like I said - might lead to nothing as well.
and which also means that the DRM in NMS is not a bug, not an accidental addition by an update. Otherwise it would be something for Support to take care of. The fact that Support say 'not our task' means, that GOG knowingly and intentionally accepts DRM in a product they sell. ... And it's up to marketing to gild that - or, more likely, to just keep quiet about it until all the remaining bothersome DRM-free purists have gone away.
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MarkoH01: Not really. It simply means that "support" is done and now it is up to "product" to do their part ... which - like I said - might lead to nothing as well.
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Lifthrasil: and which also means that the DRM in NMS is not a bug, not an accidental addition by an update. Otherwise it would be something for Support to take care of. The fact that Support say 'not our task' means, that GOG knowingly and intentionally accepts DRM in a product they sell. ... And it's up to marketing to gild that - or, more likely, to just keep quiet about it until all the remaining bothersome DRM-free purists have gone away.
No that is not the case as I said. Support is NOT touching games at all. The moment they have to change something in a game they will always forward it to product. Support is simply giving advice trying to help you to get your games running. This does not mean that I like it this way but it is the way it is right now.
Post edited November 20, 2020 by MarkoH01
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sqjzwpsr: If that's the case then it's similar to Absolver which has multiplayer-only content in form of certain loot, fighting styles and corresponding moves.
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mqstout: It is still offensive that Absolver is still on GOG.
We can clearly see what GOG thinks about it. They have just placed the game at the centrepiece of this Black Friday sale, as one of today's flash sale items.
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mqstout: It is still offensive that Absolver is still on GOG.
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mrkgnao: We can clearly see what GOG thinks about it. They have just placed the game at the centrepiece of this Black Friday sale, as one of today's flash sale items.
It's like meat in a veggie shop : D personally, I have it returned. But the same thing happened to me when I tried to buy vegetarian jelly, it turned out that the shopkeeper had no idea where the gelatin came from, as do most children.

https://www.gog.com/wishlist/site/continue_to_be_a_drmfree_store_today_tomorrow_and_forever +60 098
https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/remove_no_mans_sky_unless_the_drm_is_removed +134
https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/no_mans_sky +219
https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/no_mans_sky_gnulinux_version +49

Looks like 60k people want drm-free, but only 134 people want this game removed, and on the top 219 people want No Man Sky on gog.com, plus 49 with linux support...

What`s more, there is no clear definition of Digital Rights Management on GOG.COM, please define what is DRM
Maybe here if you like https://www.gog.com/forum/general/what_is_drm_digital_rights_management ?
Post edited November 30, 2020 by Seb369
I can't believe all the NMS bashers. Really I don't use multiplayer at all. If it's such a big issue, y'all can hack in extra quicksilver into your game and buy the items and then not touch the online part again. Once you go online, your game is updated with the newest cosmetics. There's also ways to get quicksilver without multiplayer or save editor, but it's a long grind.

Yes, there is a ship in the quicksilver store the only way you can get it is through the online multiplayer.

The problem here isn't drm, it's the fact the devs force online multiplayer on people and that forced a once in a while drm through Galaxy.
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bluesx90x: I can't believe all the NMS bashers. Really I don't use multiplayer at all. If it's such a big issue, y'all can hack in extra quicksilver into your game and buy the items and then not touch the online part again. Once you go online, your game is updated with the newest cosmetics. There's also ways to get quicksilver without multiplayer or save editor, but it's a long grind.

Yes, there is a ship in the quicksilver store the only way you can get it is through the online multiplayer.

The problem here isn't drm, it's the fact the devs force online multiplayer on people and that forced a once in a while drm through Galaxy.
This!. This thread is nonsense, the game can still be played offline.
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jsfz94: This!. This thread is nonsense, the game can still be played offline.
Most of the game can be played offline. But not everything. They introduced a part of single-player game that requires to go online through Galaxy at least once. Which both breaks the 'Galaxy entirely optional' and the '100% DRM-free' promises. 98% DRM-free is not 100%. And letting this pass sets a precedent for this scheme. If this goes through without repercussions for GOG, future games will have larger parts locked behind DRM. More quests, more parts of the single-player games. There will always be apologists. 'Oh, but you can play the majority of quests offline. You only need Galaxy for one in three quests' ... a bit later ... 'Oh, but you can start the game offline and play the tutorial mission. So the game is not REALLY DRM-ed. If you want additional content, of course you'll have to download it online'.

Too hyperbole? The slippery slope argument is alarmist? ... Look at the past. GOG has slid down every single slippery slope that there was. All the warnings about precedents in other cases have become true. GOG has made it quite clear that they want everyone to use Galaxy. So they will continue down this slope in small enough steps to avoid a big outcry. ... One of these small steps is allowing added single-player content with an enforced online requirement. Even though there is absolutely no reason to do so. That online requirement is entirely artificial, could easily be patched out and is only there to encourage online registration.
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jsfz94: This!. This thread is nonsense, the game can still be played offline.
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Lifthrasil: .....That online requirement is entirely artificial, could easily be patched out and is only there to encourage online registration.
Yes, and to be fair GOG have nothing to do with this.

Hello Games decided to make it like this. Now it might be because they have become used to using Steam Development tools in the later half of No Man's Skys development, and that (anything Steam in general) is designed to tie you into Steam? Or it might be an internal decision to enable them to collect user data more effectively, or (as this is NMS we are talking about) it could be a totally over-looked issue introduced partially by accident from a small team over-extending themselves? We see that pattern in the often '2 steps forward 1 step back' approach to updates and the changes they introduce (one reason i wait about a year or two to play a current version).

But 100% yes the quick-silver/(void egg?)/living ships issue that requires you play/connect online could easily be patched out the game and handled differently (there are even a couple of mods that give work-arounds that Hello Games could easily copy for the base game).
Post edited December 02, 2020 by ThorChild
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Lifthrasil: .....That online requirement is entirely artificial, could easily be patched out and is only there to encourage online registration.
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ThorChild: Yes, and to be fair GOG have nothing to do with this.

Hello Games decided to make it like this.
Yes, but GOG could pressure them into fixing it. They decided not to. On the contrary, they decided to keep quiet about the issue and they quietly added a note to the product page saying that it contains 'components that require an internet connection'. They call them 'online components', even if that's not entirely true.

Support just replies with 'no comment' statements and closes tickets asking to fix this as 'solved'. Blues don't reply at all anymore. Chandra said months ago that GOG contacted Hello Games months ago. But since then there is just silence. So GOG tries to sit this out.
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ThorChild: Yes, and to be fair GOG have nothing to do with this.

Hello Games decided to make it like this.
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Lifthrasil: Yes, but GOG could pressure them into fixing it. They decided not to. On the contrary, they decided to keep quiet about the issue and they quietly added a note to the product page saying that it contains 'components that require an internet connection'. They call them 'online components', even if that's not entirely true.

Support just replies with 'no comment' statements and closes tickets asking to fix this as 'solved'. Blues don't reply at all anymore. Chandra said months ago that GOG contacted Hello Games months ago. But since then there is just silence. So GOG tries to sit this out.
Well look at it from their perspective.

They sold NMS on GOG and under the situation of that original release the game was 100% DRM free and could 100% be fully played offline.

Hello Games (fairly recently) changed that situation as they decided to focus on all the fuss and hate people made over the 'lack of multi-player'. That focus changed the direction that NMS was developed in. Hello Games had some public spat with GOG around all this (in the sense we all got to know that GOG and Hello Games had a falling out of some kind over the multiplayer) and started to use Steam Workshop and Dev tools for this new multiplayer component, which meant GOG customers were a long-time behind in getting the same functionality that Steam users had. I'm sure GOG made it very clear this was not ok. They even stopped pushing NMS on the store pages for a period of time.

The trouble is GOG has very little user base vs Steam (or Playstation gamers even) so GOG's concerns are seemingly an after-thought from Hello Games. The tensions between GOG and Hello Games certainly can't help.

So what can GOG do? They are the weedy skinny guy with glasses in the corner while Steam and it's fancy MP are the large hunky 'popular' guy that is getting all the attention.

Personally i'm just happy that NMS was on GOG at all, and as i have zero interest in MP i can play the older pre-mp-required versions of NMS to enjoy the good stuff it does right, and mod out the stuff it gets wrong (mostly).

I can't see what GOG can really do other than limp along behind the Steam version and just be happy to be around?

Unless we can pressure Hello Games to change how they see us GOG users and treat us with some kind of parity (then again as they are using Steam Dev tools now, i don't think that is actually possible?) i don't think they can do much. Maybe the only thing they could do would be to threaten to not sell it on GOG any more? But Hello Games would probably jump at the chance as they have one less complication to deal with, so in the end GOG NMS users would just get shafted even more.
Post edited December 02, 2020 by ThorChild
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ThorChild: I can't see what GOG can really do other than limp along behind the Steam version and just be happy to be around?
Gog could:
a) pressure Hello Games into providing a fix. Workarounds are known, so fixing this would be easy. But maybe, as you say, GOG hasn't the power to pressure Hello Games into doing anything.
b) they could stop selling the game until it is fixed - which would anger some customers
c) they could get permission from Hello Games to fix it themselves. Again, a workaround is possible. GOG just has to apply it. Hello Games would have zero work with this.
d) at the very least they could keep the last version of the game without the DRM available as offline backup installer. In that way everyone who wants it could download a 100% DRM-free version. But they don't. That is a decision that is entirely in their camp.

And at the very, very least they could communicate what is being done. The silent treatment of their customers just shows that there is nothing to tell. I.e. they have done nothing that they could communicate. Or the blues are even forbidden from talking about the issue. Same as in the case of Absolver. (in the case of that game GOG should classify it as pure multiplayer game like Gwent - or stop selling it)
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ThorChild: I can't see what GOG can really do other than limp along behind the Steam version and just be happy to be around?
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Lifthrasil: Gog could:
a) pressure Hello Games into providing a fix. Workarounds are known, so fixing this would be easy. But maybe, as you say, GOG hasn't the power to pressure Hello Games into doing anything.
I'm sure they have done this already, in that they have brought up the issue with Hello Games. I tried the zen-desk of Hello Games myself and did not even receive a reply.

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Lifthrasil: b) they could stop selling the game until it is fixed - which would anger some customers.
They 'might' have already tried this, just going on the 'peak frostiness' between HG and GOG a few years back. If so i suspect HG were just like 'OK but refunds are on you as per the agreement of sale'. Conjecture.

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Lifthrasil: c) they could get permission from Hello Games to fix it themselves. Again, a workaround is possible. GOG just has to apply it. Hello Games would have zero work with this.
This would be hard (legally) to do in the best of corporate relationships (IP and control of rights being what it is).

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Lifthrasil: d) at the very least they could keep the last version of the game without the DRM available as offline backup installer. In that way everyone who wants it could download a 100% DRM-free version. But they don't. That is a decision that is entirely in their camp.

And at the very, very least they could communicate what is being done. The silent treatment of their customers just shows that there is nothing to tell. I.e. they have done nothing that they could communicate. Or the blues are even forbidden from talking about the issue. Same as in the case of Absolver. (in the case of that game GOG should classify it as pure multiplayer game like Gwent - or stop selling it)
The last point is legit. I had to push GOG support to provide me a link to the current version of NMS i am playing (Synthesis 2.27 iirc, the last patch of that update version), which is the version before the 'Living Ships update' that introduced the online requirement. GOG 'could' provide that in the 'offline installer section, clearly defined as what it was to not confuse it with the current version etc, and stating why it was there maybe to bring greater attention to the issue?

So last point aside (as that is something GOG could setup fairly easily) all the rest is on Hello Games. They won't (seemingly) respond to zen-desk requests for GOG customers, they introduced the online requirement for the single player game, they are in the best position to fix the issue (as it is their IP), but they don't seem to want to.
Post edited December 02, 2020 by ThorChild